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	<title>Comments on: Science and Fiction</title>
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	<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/</link>
	<description>Ben Goldacre&#039;s Bad Science column from the Guardian and more...</description>
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		<title>By: diudiu</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-30208</link>
		<dc:creator>diudiu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-30208</guid>
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		<title>By: NelsonGabriel</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10192</link>
		<dc:creator>NelsonGabriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10192</guid>
		<description>kim: Doll and colleagues were not the first to suggest that there was a smoking-lung cancer link, indeed there is a whole fascinating story about Nazi science here.  There is a fascinating book by     Robert Proctor   &quot;The Nazi War on Cancer&quot;   
ISBN 069 107 0512

The scientist who found the smoking-cancer link was called Mueller.  It seems that his studies were excellent, and certainly the statistical treatment of it was state-of-the-art, though it would not meet modern standards.  This is what I was told by Kevin McConway of the Open Uni.  He had heard of Mueller but did not know about the book.

The amazing thing is how modern the regime&#039;s preoccupations were: they discouraged smoking and alcohol, encouraged vegetarianism and even had laws about pesticide residues and food additives.   But of course at the heart of it was preserving a healthy race, staying fit to fight/produce babies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kim: Doll and colleagues were not the first to suggest that there was a smoking-lung cancer link, indeed there is a whole fascinating story about Nazi science here.  There is a fascinating book by     Robert Proctor   &#8220;The Nazi War on Cancer&#8221;<br />
ISBN 069 107 0512</p>
<p>The scientist who found the smoking-cancer link was called Mueller.  It seems that his studies were excellent, and certainly the statistical treatment of it was state-of-the-art, though it would not meet modern standards.  This is what I was told by Kevin McConway of the Open Uni.  He had heard of Mueller but did not know about the book.</p>
<p>The amazing thing is how modern the regime&#8217;s preoccupations were: they discouraged smoking and alcohol, encouraged vegetarianism and even had laws about pesticide residues and food additives.   But of course at the heart of it was preserving a healthy race, staying fit to fight/produce babies.</p>
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		<title>By: Dioscorides</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10182</link>
		<dc:creator>Dioscorides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10182</guid>
		<description>The human machine is incredibly complicated and interacts at multiple levels with its environment beginning from conception. Much of its interactive capability is genetic but each generation faces complexities far greater than previous generations. All studies that assume they can examine one  human mechanism in isolation from this complex animal are beginning with a ridiculous assumption. The best they can do is have good study control amd excellent study design and competent and honest biostatisticians to analyze  the data. Then they can make some  likely valid observations. However the comments on study outcomes being self-serving to those doing and touting the studies is right on. I used to tell my patients  that  if 100 physicians were asked a question and all agreed then there was an 80% chance they were correct. If there were two well defended opinions then each only had a 50% chance of being correct and if three or more well defended opinions existed then it was just &quot;take your chance&quot;. So all of &#039;Modern&quot; medicine is 80%, 50% or take your chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The human machine is incredibly complicated and interacts at multiple levels with its environment beginning from conception. Much of its interactive capability is genetic but each generation faces complexities far greater than previous generations. All studies that assume they can examine one  human mechanism in isolation from this complex animal are beginning with a ridiculous assumption. The best they can do is have good study control amd excellent study design and competent and honest biostatisticians to analyze  the data. Then they can make some  likely valid observations. However the comments on study outcomes being self-serving to those doing and touting the studies is right on. I used to tell my patients  that  if 100 physicians were asked a question and all agreed then there was an 80% chance they were correct. If there were two well defended opinions then each only had a 50% chance of being correct and if three or more well defended opinions existed then it was just &#8220;take your chance&#8221;. So all of &#8216;Modern&#8221; medicine is 80%, 50% or take your chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Kells</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10180</link>
		<dc:creator>Kells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10180</guid>
		<description>a. Good article Ben - just getting better and better.
b. ellazimm and Universal Antidote - don&#039;t give up, you will find a way of getting the message across if you keep at it. It&#039;s hard not to rant but that generally won&#039;t work (but is enjoyable). Just the odd comment or question that shows up the silliness of the &#039;cure&#039; being discussed is enough I think, let the penny drop.
I realised my friends took me seriously years ago when I refused the offer of eggs at breakfast. There was a wide eyed &quot;Why?  Whats wrong with eggs??&quot; moment until I explained I just don&#039;t like the taste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a. Good article Ben &#8211; just getting better and better.<br />
b. ellazimm and Universal Antidote &#8211; don&#8217;t give up, you will find a way of getting the message across if you keep at it. It&#8217;s hard not to rant but that generally won&#8217;t work (but is enjoyable). Just the odd comment or question that shows up the silliness of the &#8216;cure&#8217; being discussed is enough I think, let the penny drop.<br />
I realised my friends took me seriously years ago when I refused the offer of eggs at breakfast. There was a wide eyed &#8220;Why?  Whats wrong with eggs??&#8221; moment until I explained I just don&#8217;t like the taste.</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10175</link>
		<dc:creator>kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10175</guid>
		<description>There are so many people I&#039;d love to show this to - all the ones who worry that they&#039;re not getting enough zinc, or vitamin B12, or whatever. (The person I&#039;d really like to see this is India Knight, who week after week in her Sunday Times column bangs on about nutrition despite the fact that in her own words, she &quot;smokes like a chav&quot;. Strewth.)

There are twp things I&#039;d take you up on. One is the correlation between social class and mortality rates. Of course middle-class people do less dangerous jobs, smoke less and live in better quality housing. But surely one of the reasons middle-class people live longer is because they eat better? 

The second is the idea that the correlation between smoking and lung cancer came as a surprise. I know Richard Doll always claimed this was the case but I read recently that the original government brief for his research asked him to look at whether smoking  might be a cause of lung cancer. (But the fact that I read it somewhere doesn&#039;t of course make it true...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are so many people I&#8217;d love to show this to &#8211; all the ones who worry that they&#8217;re not getting enough zinc, or vitamin B12, or whatever. (The person I&#8217;d really like to see this is India Knight, who week after week in her Sunday Times column bangs on about nutrition despite the fact that in her own words, she &#8220;smokes like a chav&#8221;. Strewth.)</p>
<p>There are twp things I&#8217;d take you up on. One is the correlation between social class and mortality rates. Of course middle-class people do less dangerous jobs, smoke less and live in better quality housing. But surely one of the reasons middle-class people live longer is because they eat better? </p>
<p>The second is the idea that the correlation between smoking and lung cancer came as a surprise. I know Richard Doll always claimed this was the case but I read recently that the original government brief for his research asked him to look at whether smoking  might be a cause of lung cancer. (But the fact that I read it somewhere doesn&#8217;t of course make it true&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Universal Antidote</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10172</link>
		<dc:creator>Universal Antidote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10172</guid>
		<description>I agree with ellazimm about feeling like a sideshow.  What I hate is having to be all Debbie Downer around my friends who brag about how echinacea (yuck!) and Airborne cure their colds.  When I try to explain regression to the mean or the placebo effect, let alone RCTs or systematic reviews, no matter how beautifully I translate the concepts into English, they look at me like I&#039;m speaking Greek.

If it were all harmless, that&#039;s one thing, but isn&#039;t echinacea supposed to be rather toxic in moderately high amounts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with ellazimm about feeling like a sideshow.  What I hate is having to be all Debbie Downer around my friends who brag about how echinacea (yuck!) and Airborne cure their colds.  When I try to explain regression to the mean or the placebo effect, let alone RCTs or systematic reviews, no matter how beautifully I translate the concepts into English, they look at me like I&#8217;m speaking Greek.</p>
<p>If it were all harmless, that&#8217;s one thing, but isn&#8217;t echinacea supposed to be rather toxic in moderately high amounts?</p>
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		<title>By: AitchJay</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10166</link>
		<dc:creator>AitchJay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10166</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s interesting and engaging to hear anyone speak passionately about a topic, whatever the situation. Apart from manic street preachers, that is..

Get some new friends: ones that enjoy intellectual stimuli.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s interesting and engaging to hear anyone speak passionately about a topic, whatever the situation. Apart from manic street preachers, that is..</p>
<p>Get some new friends: ones that enjoy intellectual stimuli.</p>
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		<title>By: ellazimm</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10161</link>
		<dc:creator>ellazimm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10161</guid>
		<description>I know this sounds trite but how do you stop from being made fun of by your friends at dinner parties?  Last night I was &quot;prompted&quot; to have a rant about some similar topic and felt as if I was the hired entertainment.  I&#039;d love to have your job but more importantly I&#039;d love to be taken seriously.  Why is skepticism a side show?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this sounds trite but how do you stop from being made fun of by your friends at dinner parties?  Last night I was &#8220;prompted&#8221; to have a rant about some similar topic and felt as if I was the hired entertainment.  I&#8217;d love to have your job but more importantly I&#8217;d love to be taken seriously.  Why is skepticism a side show?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10157</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10157</guid>
		<description>Nice overview of the field of nutritionism.
Sorry to be pedantic, but shouldn&#039;t it be &quot;countervailing&quot; in paragraph six, line three?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice overview of the field of nutritionism.<br />
Sorry to be pedantic, but shouldn&#8217;t it be &#8220;countervailing&#8221; in paragraph six, line three?</p>
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		<title>By: evidencebasedeating</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10154</link>
		<dc:creator>evidencebasedeating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10154</guid>
		<description>Spot on with the observations. Of course, the whole concept of nutritionalism (food group exclusions + weird combo of supplements by the handful + manic media preachers) grew from the fact herbal medicines were deliberately excluded from the original UK Medicines Act. What at the time permitted bona fide medical herbalists to continue their practice in parallel with the fledgling NHS has mushroomed (Shiitake, obviously) to the bloated and over-hyped supplement market du jour. 

So whilst taking the one-a-day multivit and mineral (MVM) complex may afford you psychological if not actual health insurance, the fantastic claims about B COMPLEX!!!!, VITAMIN C!!!!, VITAMIN E!!!!! are falling apart as conventional, well conducted studies fail to demonstrate their over-hyped benefits for the well fed, western populations. 

In 2003, the Expert Committee on Vitamins and Minerals concluded that over 20 nutrients commonly consumed at beyond-nutritional need level had inadequate evidence to support a robust &#039;safe upper limit&#039; level - instead, suggesting &#039;guidance&#039; maximal intakes instead http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/vitmin2003.pdf. So current consumers taken in by the &#039;vitamin pill for every il&#039; hype are our &#039;guinea pigs&#039; for future research.....

Just when will the media take an &#039;emperors new clothes&#039; approach to the increasingly bizarre rantings and recommendations of the meeja nutritionists exploiting column inches and broadcast time for self-aggrandisement and opportunities to push their endorsed wares?


I h</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spot on with the observations. Of course, the whole concept of nutritionalism (food group exclusions + weird combo of supplements by the handful + manic media preachers) grew from the fact herbal medicines were deliberately excluded from the original UK Medicines Act. What at the time permitted bona fide medical herbalists to continue their practice in parallel with the fledgling NHS has mushroomed (Shiitake, obviously) to the bloated and over-hyped supplement market du jour. </p>
<p>So whilst taking the one-a-day multivit and mineral (MVM) complex may afford you psychological if not actual health insurance, the fantastic claims about B COMPLEX!!!!, VITAMIN C!!!!, VITAMIN E!!!!! are falling apart as conventional, well conducted studies fail to demonstrate their over-hyped benefits for the well fed, western populations. </p>
<p>In 2003, the Expert Committee on Vitamins and Minerals concluded that over 20 nutrients commonly consumed at beyond-nutritional need level had inadequate evidence to support a robust &#8217;safe upper limit&#8217; level &#8211; instead, suggesting &#8216;guidance&#8217; maximal intakes instead <a href="http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/vitmin2003.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/vitmin2003.pdf</a>. So current consumers taken in by the &#8216;vitamin pill for every il&#8217; hype are our &#8216;guinea pigs&#8217; for future research&#8230;..</p>
<p>Just when will the media take an &#8216;emperors new clothes&#8217; approach to the increasingly bizarre rantings and recommendations of the meeja nutritionists exploiting column inches and broadcast time for self-aggrandisement and opportunities to push their endorsed wares?</p>
<p>I h</p>
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		<title>By: JunkkMale</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10153</link>
		<dc:creator>JunkkMale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10153</guid>
		<description>&quot;There is no doubt that basic sensible dietary and lifestyle advice is sound. You should exercise more, eat more fibre, and more fresh fruit and vegetables.&quot;

Bang on. But it wouldn&#039;t fill too many column inches, and would soon cease to be newsworthy in the repetition. Much better to keep finding something new, make it very complex, and preferably stir up a controversy that will only result eventually in the product being remembered enough to sustain the marketing.

Works for all concerned, especially those with whole new careers being the media interface du jour for lazy other media seeking a quick way to fill some space or time as well. 

Shame it only reached the audience of the New Statesman who, I would hazard, have already suspected as much. Bet there&#039;s still a few â€˜out of sell-by dateâ€™ bottles of vits to counter ague and ill-humours lurking in the back of the cabinet, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There is no doubt that basic sensible dietary and lifestyle advice is sound. You should exercise more, eat more fibre, and more fresh fruit and vegetables.&#8221;</p>
<p>Bang on. But it wouldn&#8217;t fill too many column inches, and would soon cease to be newsworthy in the repetition. Much better to keep finding something new, make it very complex, and preferably stir up a controversy that will only result eventually in the product being remembered enough to sustain the marketing.</p>
<p>Works for all concerned, especially those with whole new careers being the media interface du jour for lazy other media seeking a quick way to fill some space or time as well. </p>
<p>Shame it only reached the audience of the New Statesman who, I would hazard, have already suspected as much. Bet there&#8217;s still a few â€˜out of sell-by dateâ€™ bottles of vits to counter ague and ill-humours lurking in the back of the cabinet, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave M</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10149</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10149</guid>
		<description>Great piece, although the most important thing I took from this was that I really have to move out of Kentish Town!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great piece, although the most important thing I took from this was that I really have to move out of Kentish Town!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Crowley</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/01/science-and-fiction/comment-page-1/#comment-10148</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=352#comment-10148</guid>
		<description>The Daily Mail&#039;s project is the oncological ontology, then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Daily Mail&#8217;s project is the oncological ontology, then?</p>
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