Comments on: Given the choice, I’d have a miracle pill story http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/ Ben Goldacre's Bad Science column from the Guardian and more... Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:31:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: diudiu http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-30282 diudiu Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:38:53 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-30282 <a title="free shipping ugg" href="http://www.freeshippingugg.com" rel="nofollow"><strong>free shipping ugg</strong></a> <a title="free shipping ugg" href="http://www.freeshippingugg.com" rel="nofollow"><strong>free shipping ugg</strong></a> free shipping ugg
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]]> By: Ben Goldacre http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-15960 Ben Goldacre Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:06:08 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-15960 <p>haven't i written about this already? or am i confusing you with medical students. ive certainly spoken about it approximately one million times, maybe let me know if a topical hook for it appears...</p> haven’t i written about this already? or am i confusing you with medical students. ive certainly spoken about it approximately one million times, maybe let me know if a topical hook for it appears…

]]> By: Cedders http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-15954 Cedders Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:10:26 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-15954 I'd be interested in a Bad Science column on the serotonin hypothesis too. It's an example not so much of "bad" science as a valid hypothesis that seemed plausible in the 1970s but has only persisted because of Big Pharma PR. David Healy, in _The Antidepressant Era_ describes the historical accidents that led to the hypothesis, concluding that it is "more marketing than science". One of the very few pieces of favourable evidence for the hypothesis was that 15% of people given reserpine (an anti-serotonergic drug) developed depression. Healy points out the conveniently forgotten fact that the first drug to pass a randomised controlled trial for depression was in fact reserpine! Whatever the mechanism for antidepressants' action (endocrine and GABA-related effects also having been suggested), the serotonin hypothesis is false. If it were true, effectiveness would follow the change in serotonin levels, such that 100% of people would respond in the first day, not around two-thirds after 4 weeks. I’d be interested in a Bad Science column on the serotonin hypothesis too. It’s an example not so much of “bad” science as a valid hypothesis that seemed plausible in the 1970s but has only persisted because of Big Pharma PR. David Healy, in _The Antidepressant Era_ describes the historical accidents that led to the hypothesis, concluding that it is “more marketing than science”. One of the very few pieces of favourable evidence for the hypothesis was that 15% of people given reserpine (an anti-serotonergic drug) developed depression. Healy points out the conveniently forgotten fact that the first drug to pass a randomised controlled trial for depression was in fact reserpine!

Whatever the mechanism for antidepressants’ action (endocrine and GABA-related effects also having been suggested), the serotonin hypothesis is false. If it were true, effectiveness would follow the change in serotonin levels, such that 100% of people would respond in the first day, not around two-thirds after 4 weeks.

]]> By: Robert Carnegie http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-14046 Robert Carnegie Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:03:50 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-14046 If it's any help, an early Google result for serotonin-hypothesis is "Death to the Serotonin Hypothesis". They are evidently quite worked up about it :-) I suppose that a "strong serotonin hypothesis" would be that depression consists of a deficiency of (available) serotonin in the brain. Since serotonin is a chemical, and depression is a state of mind, it isn't entirely clear how these join up. On the other hand, when prescribed by my doctor, I found fluoxetine, the well-known SSRI, gently but firmly effective, not always comfortable. I find arguments that it is no better than placebo very surprising. Amongst possible explanations are that a particularly strong placebo was used or that some people do well on it and some people do worse than on nothing, or at least on a placebo. If it’s any help, an early Google result for serotonin-hypothesis is “Death to the Serotonin Hypothesis”. They are evidently quite worked up about it :-)

I suppose that a “strong serotonin hypothesis” would be that depression consists of a deficiency of (available) serotonin in the brain. Since serotonin is a chemical, and depression is a state of mind, it isn’t entirely clear how these join up.

On the other hand, when prescribed by my doctor, I found fluoxetine, the well-known SSRI, gently but firmly effective, not always comfortable. I find arguments that it is no better than placebo very surprising. Amongst possible explanations are that a particularly strong placebo was used or that some people do well on it and some people do worse than on nothing, or at least on a placebo.

]]> By: gingerninja http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-13165 gingerninja Mon, 28 May 2007 21:20:07 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-13165 a digression- "Pharmaceutical companies have worked hard, let’s remember, in their direct to consumer advertisements and their lobbying, to push the serotonin hypothesis for depression, even though the scientific evidence for this theory is growing thinner every quarter," Please could we have a bad science article on this or can you point me in the direction of some good info? That is a gem to me- I've been saying that for ages but most sceptical/scientific types of the armchair variety I've discussed it with, say that the serotonin hypothesis has been proven. a digression-

“Pharmaceutical companies have worked hard, let’s remember, in their direct to consumer advertisements and their lobbying, to push the serotonin hypothesis for depression, even though the scientific evidence for this theory is growing thinner every quarter,”

Please could we have a bad science article on this or can you point me in the direction of some good info? That is a gem to me- I’ve been saying that for ages but most sceptical/scientific types of the armchair variety I’ve discussed it with, say that the serotonin hypothesis has been proven.

]]> By: bernarda http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-13047 bernarda Thu, 24 May 2007 15:47:36 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-13047 Perhaps a bit off topic, but there has been discussion of thimerosal at this website. I wonder if this is also in Britain. http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/05/ask_a_scienceblogger_making_va.php#commentsArea Perhaps a bit off topic, but there has been discussion of thimerosal at this website. I wonder if this is also in Britain.

http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/05/ask_a_scienceblogger_making_va.php#commentsArea

]]> By: Diotima http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-13010 Diotima Wed, 23 May 2007 09:43:18 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-13010 Ben, What is your line on NICE's decision to urge GPs to prescribe fish oil pills for patients who have had a heart attack? (Along with pious insistance on adopting a 'mediterranean' diet)? Ben,
What is your line on NICE’s decision to urge GPs to prescribe fish oil pills for patients who have had a heart attack? (Along with pious insistance on adopting a ‘mediterranean’ diet)?

]]> By: Wonko http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12818 Wonko Fri, 11 May 2007 09:26:08 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12818 I suppose it would be crude to point out that the designers of parenting programmes are less likely to provide much in the way of advertising revenue whereas the manufacturers of fish oil pills are likely to buy whole page spreads on the adjacent page to the story - a practice very common in magazines and supplements. I suppose it would be crude to point out that the designers of parenting programmes are less likely to provide much in the way of advertising revenue whereas the manufacturers of fish oil pills are likely to buy whole page spreads on the adjacent page to the story – a practice very common in magazines and supplements.

]]> By: Mojo http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12806 Mojo Tue, 08 May 2007 09:18:45 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12806 Nice article about the entire British news media ignoring a story, but couldn't it have been published in your Guardian column rather than in the same journal the story originally appeared in? Nice article about the entire British news media ignoring a story, but couldn’t it have been published in your Guardian column rather than in the same journal the story originally appeared in?

]]> By: j http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12805 j Tue, 08 May 2007 01:41:04 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12805 "A detail on the fish oil thing, how feasible is it to cut out the pharmaceutical company and just feed school students on fish?" In terms of random info, it actually works out about the same price or less to get a 'dose' of fish oil from tinned sardines/pilchards as from some of the dearer brands of fish oil. “A detail on the fish oil thing, how feasible is it to cut out the pharmaceutical company and just feed school students on fish?”

In terms of random info, it actually works out about the same price or less to get a ‘dose’ of fish oil from tinned sardines/pilchards as from some of the dearer brands of fish oil.

]]> By: Robert Carnegie http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12799 Robert Carnegie Sun, 06 May 2007 19:37:48 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12799 A detail on the fish oil thing, how feasible is it to cut out the pharmaceutical company and just feed school students on fish? I know, I know, solving the wrong problem... but it's not like fish is -bad- for you, in moderation. In batter with chips though... excuse me, I feel hungry now. Must remember: trans fats, trans fats. A detail on the fish oil thing, how feasible is it to cut out the pharmaceutical company and just feed school students on fish?

I know, I know, solving the wrong problem… but it’s not like fish is -bad- for you, in moderation. In batter with chips though… excuse me, I feel hungry now. Must remember: trans fats, trans fats.

]]> By: raygirvan http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12795 raygirvan Sun, 06 May 2007 11:58:55 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12795 This would be the Incredible Years basic parenting programme? Quite probably, the papers know that it presents a solution that readers don't want to hear. It's not a quick or easy fix, and it requires parents to modify their own behaviour (no-one wants to be told they're part of the problem, or that their parenting skills need improving). This would be the Incredible Years basic parenting programme? Quite probably, the papers know that it presents a solution that readers don’t want to hear. It’s not a quick or easy fix, and it requires parents to modify their own behaviour (no-one wants to be told they’re part of the problem, or that their parenting skills need improving).

]]> By: jackpt http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12775 jackpt Fri, 04 May 2007 23:53:13 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12775 The media is a feedback loop, it's difficult to gauge the extent of its influence or the degree to which it reflects the public. But the media is out of touch. The simplistic way in which it portrays complex issues is anachronistic in a wired world. Because in order to maintain the interest of people like myself the media is going to have to offer better quality than the Internet. Many Internet voices at least have the excuse of being unpaid amateurs. The media is a feedback loop, it’s difficult to gauge the extent of its influence or the degree to which it reflects the public. But the media is out of touch. The simplistic way in which it portrays complex issues is anachronistic in a wired world. Because in order to maintain the interest of people like myself the media is going to have to offer better quality than the Internet. Many Internet voices at least have the excuse of being unpaid amateurs.

]]> By: Nellie Dean http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12772 Nellie Dean Fri, 04 May 2007 21:39:56 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12772 Bravo! Bravo!

]]> By: Will http://www.badscience.net/2007/05/given-the-choice-id-have-the-miracle-pill-story/comment-page-1/#comment-12771 Will Fri, 04 May 2007 19:11:18 +0000 http://www.badscience.net/?p=409#comment-12771 I have to disagree there... I find the complex and difficult stories the most interesting of all. They are gritty, taxing, and need to be understood. What's more interesting still is the interplay between these real factors and the self-deception of society through the media. It's almost as if society is hiding its head under the pillow because it doesn't want to confront the tricky things... and the companies that can make a buck will always take advantage of a vulnerable source, cowed by fear. I have to disagree there… I find the complex and difficult stories the most interesting of all. They are gritty, taxing, and need to be understood. What’s more interesting still is the interplay between these real factors and the self-deception of society through the media. It’s almost as if society is hiding its head under the pillow because it doesn’t want to confront the tricky things… and the companies that can make a buck will always take advantage of a vulnerable source, cowed by fear.

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