Comments on: Appendix: Andy’s incredibly polite email to the Society of Homeopaths

By: diudiu

diudiu — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:21:57 +0000

free shipping ugg free shipping ugg

By: le canard noir

le canard noir — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:14:22 +0000

I have now posted a few thoughts on the letter that the Society wrote to the Guardian about Ben’s article.

My solicitor advices me to stick to calling their letter ‘misleading’.

www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/10/society-of-homeopaths-truth-matters.html

By: Robert Carnegie

Robert Carnegie — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:57:30 +0000

If it can’t be proved that the ritual of treatment has zero effect on treatment outcome, including quality of life, then placebo effect has to be considered in tests.

For instance, would you prefer not to know that you had untreatable terminal cancer that will kvery soon kill you? Since if there is no placebo effect, then knowing or not knowing makes no difference.

Not telling you has another outcome – it probably saves a lot of doctor time explaining why you’re going to die. Dying is something you can do by yourself.

The other flaw in this example is that cancer is liable to be painful, and pain is not often untreatable nowadays.

By: pv

pv — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:50:39 +0000

Also, quietstorm, remember that a placebo contains no medically active ingredient. Therefore, when studies say that homeopathic remedies fare no better than a placebo, as all the well conducted ones do, what they are saying is that homeopathic remedies fare no better than taking no medicine at all (ie. nothing). Whatever effect homeopaths like to claim for their pretend medicine they are undoubtedly psychosomatic (symptoms relieved by diversion) or merely coincidental with the condition’s natural self-limiting “expiry date”.
Ben doesn’t like us to use the “L” word so let’s just say that any claims for homeopathy being able to effect a cure for malaria, HIV,or any other non-self-limiting ailment isn’t consistent with the evidence. These claims are as grounded in reality as the claim that the Earth is flat and orbited by the sun.

By: pv

pv — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:15:14 +0000

quietstorm said,

October 26, 2007 at 9:53 pm
“But it strikes me that the “placebo effect” perhaps alleviates symptoms, but doesn’t “cure” anything. I’m thinking that a cure specifically gets rid of a disease from the body (i.e. attacks cancerous cells to remove them, or gets rid of an infection) whereas other medicines simply alleviate the symptoms whilst the body tries to fix the underlying problem. Is this true, or am I being too simplistic?”

I posted the following link in the forum. I think it might have some bearing on the placebo effect.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7052318.stm

By: quietstorm

quietstorm — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:53:24 +0000

I agree with pv – it’s attractive, the ethical bullshit line, since we know that the “placebo effect” does make people feel better. But then we risk splitting society into two – those who know that it’s rubbish, and those who are being “duped”. There is no way to keep those two sections of society apart, and eventually, once the “duped” are aware of the situation, there will just be huge mistrust of any medicine (well, more widespread than it is now). That has to be counterproductive.

But it strikes me that the “placebo effect” perhaps alleviates symptoms, but doesn’t “cure” anything. I’m thinking that a cure specifically gets rid of a disease from the body (i.e. attacks cancerous cells to remove them, or gets rid of an infection) whereas other medicines simply alleviate the symptoms whilst the body tries to fix the underlying problem. Is this true, or am I being too simplistic?

By: pv

pv — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:58:32 +0000

Homeopathy as a substitute for education? I can see the attraction but it’s still morally indefensible.

By: Pete Mella

Pete Mella — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:29:23 +0000

Oops, I meant Dr Phil Hammond, of course, Richard Hammond’s the bloke in the jet car.

By: Pete Mella

Pete Mella — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:18:08 +0000

Off topic a tad… I saw a repeat of HIGNFY on the ridiculously-titled digital channel “Dave” last night, and was depressed to see Dr Richard Hammond on it standing up for homeopathy and getting a vigourous round of applause. Maybe he was right when he said if it means less patients on Prozac it was a good thing, but it was sad to hear quite how keen people were to applaud it, as if here at last was one of those doctors, making a stand for common sense of giving people tiny drops of pure water as a cure!

By: spk76

spk76 — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:46:30 +0000

Off topic but here’s some breaking news from the Observer…

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7061177.stm

By: oneiros

oneiros — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:13:29 +0000

Watch this space…

404: Not found?

By: cantabrigian

cantabrigian — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:55:09 +0000

Surely the fewer signatures they have on the petition the more effectoive it will be..

By: pv

pv — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:24:29 +0000

manigen said,

October 24, 2007 at 10:43 am

“Ah, this is one of those situations where most of us will never find out the whole story, isn’t it? Never mind.

Anyway, back to the SoH. Later in their letter to the Guardian they say:

“The Society has been working to create a robust system of voluntary self-regulation for homeopathy…and a culture of research and critical reflection on practice.”

Three words: No…They…Haven’t.”

I presume we aren’t allowed to use the “L” word otherwise they’d send their lawyers round with demands that all truthful statements be removed.

By: manigen

manigen — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:43:52 +0000

Ah, this is one of those situations where most of us will never find out the whole story, isn’t it? Never mind.

Anyway, back to the SoH. Later in their letter to the Guardian they say:

“The Society has been working to create a robust system of voluntary self-regulation for homeopathy…and a culture of research and critical reflection on practice.”

Three words: No…They…Haven’t.

By: Ben Goldacre

Ben Goldacre — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:10:14 +0000

hi, sorry, apricot/kerry/svetlana/whatever is the very unpleasant stalker of someone who comes to this board a lot, as you know i have absolutely no interest whatsoever in wasting my time moderating discussions here but they have agreed not to post, after a lot of dreary timewasting emails, and i dont know why they continue to post intermittently, but i will delete them all. it's a contemptible waste of my time but there it is.

By: BarryNL

BarryNL — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:13:00 +0000

apricot: “NHS is pimped by the pharmaceutical industry whose sole purpose for existing is to promote the interests of those who fund it”

Of course that’s also true – all industry funded bodies exist to promote the interests of those who pay the bills. Follow the money, as they say.

Fortunately the pharmaceutical industry is not self-regulated but has to adhere to government regulations. A self-regulated pharmaceutical industry would certainly be a scary thing. Indeed, we can get a taster by looking at how they behave in the US where they can directly advertise to the patient.

So, can we agree that the situation with homeopathy would be improved by bringing homeopathic suppliers under the same regulations as the pharmaceutical industry? In fact, can we agree that self-regulation is a disaster in any industry?

By: mikestanton

mikestanton — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:50:28 +0000

“On the other hand, I also think we should wait until they get, oh, 100,000 satisfied customer signatures before starting any counter-effort whatsoever.”

Good idea. Give ‘em a sporting chance. And don’t give them too much credibility by taking them too seriously too early,

By: le canard noir

le canard noir — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:01:50 +0000

My bet is they will not make 10,000.

By: Robert Carnegie

Robert Carnegie — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:51:21 +0000

I don’t think that “Placebo worked for me” could honestly be signed by a large number of people. May I propose something like “I didn’t take anything for it and I got better.” For instance, I had a slight cold (I think I’m getting another), didn’t take anything for it…

Or perhaps “I scoff at homeopathy, I got better taking nothing.”

On the other hand, I also think we should wait until they get, oh, 100,000 satisfied customer signatures before starting any counter-effort whatsoever.

By: apricot

apricot — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:28:15 +0000

C’mon guys, the NHS is pimped by the pharmaceutical industry whose sole purpose for existing is to promote the interests of those who fund it.