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	<title>Comments on: BMJ Column &#8211; Beware of mentioning psychosocial factors</title>
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	<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/</link>
	<description>Ben Goldacre&#039;s Bad Science column from the Guardian and more...</description>
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		<title>By: diudiu</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-30189</link>
		<dc:creator>diudiu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Harlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18667</link>
		<dc:creator>Harlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18667</guid>
		<description>&quot;...the Journal of Psychosomatics now uses the terms ‘psychosomatic’ and ‘biopsychosocial’ interchangeably.&quot; McLaren N. The biopsychosocial model and scientific fraud. Paper presented to annual congress, RANZCP, Christchurch May 2004 available from the author at jockmcl@octa4.net.au</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;the Journal of Psychosomatics now uses the terms ‘psychosomatic’ and ‘biopsychosocial’ interchangeably.&#8221; McLaren N. The biopsychosocial model and scientific fraud. Paper presented to annual congress, RANZCP, Christchurch May 2004 available from the author at <a href="mailto:jockmcl@octa4.net.au">jockmcl@octa4.net.au</a></p>
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		<title>By: scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18558</link>
		<dc:creator>scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18558</guid>
		<description>Two words very heavily laden with associations and undertones - &quot;psychosocial&quot; or &quot;psychosomatic&quot;  for many people equate to &quot;not a real disease&quot;, while &quot;placebo&quot; - for many people equates to &quot;not a real medicine.&quot; Hard for people to listen properly to what you want to say when these undertones are what they hear.  It would move us on considerably if we could agree on a value-free terminology to discuss the intricate interworkings of mind and body, and to discuss the multitude of ways in which people find relief from their suffering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two words very heavily laden with associations and undertones &#8211; &#8220;psychosocial&#8221; or &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221;  for many people equate to &#8220;not a real disease&#8221;, while &#8220;placebo&#8221; &#8211; for many people equates to &#8220;not a real medicine.&#8221; Hard for people to listen properly to what you want to say when these undertones are what they hear.  It would move us on considerably if we could agree on a value-free terminology to discuss the intricate interworkings of mind and body, and to discuss the multitude of ways in which people find relief from their suffering.</p>
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		<title>By: tronador</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18219</link>
		<dc:creator>tronador</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18219</guid>
		<description>It sounds like the many listeners/readers are confused about the definition of &quot;psychosomatic&quot;. The vast majority of chronic back pain is psychomatic and is simply  myofascial pain related to unconscious emotion such as repressed anger or possibly conscious emotional stress. The average person seems to accept the concepts of  other myofascial conditions such as &quot;tension headache&quot;, colloquialisms such as &quot;pain in the neck&quot; and &quot;pain in the ass.&quot; Why not tension backache? Most people seem to understand other mind-body conditions such as the sensory components of &quot;heartache&quot;, &quot;gut feelings&quot;, &quot;butterflies in the stomach&quot;, and the like. Clinical experience shows that when people finally make the connections between back pain and their emotions, give up the fear of injuring themselves, and realize that the majority of people without any back pain have some level of demonstratable pathology on MRI,they quickly get better!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like the many listeners/readers are confused about the definition of &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221;. The vast majority of chronic back pain is psychomatic and is simply  myofascial pain related to unconscious emotion such as repressed anger or possibly conscious emotional stress. The average person seems to accept the concepts of  other myofascial conditions such as &#8220;tension headache&#8221;, colloquialisms such as &#8220;pain in the neck&#8221; and &#8220;pain in the ass.&#8221; Why not tension backache? Most people seem to understand other mind-body conditions such as the sensory components of &#8220;heartache&#8221;, &#8220;gut feelings&#8221;, &#8220;butterflies in the stomach&#8221;, and the like. Clinical experience shows that when people finally make the connections between back pain and their emotions, give up the fear of injuring themselves, and realize that the majority of people without any back pain have some level of demonstratable pathology on MRI,they quickly get better!</p>
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		<title>By: buffalo66</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18097</link>
		<dc:creator>buffalo66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18097</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not at all surprised that listeners didn&#039;t know the difference between psychosocial and psychosomatic.  In fact, I&#039;m not sure what the difference is myself.  The Concise Oxford Dictionary (8th edition) has these definitions:

psychosocial: of or involving the influence of social factors or human interactive behaviour.

psychosomatic: 1 (of an illness, etc.) caused by or aggravated by mental conflict, stress, etc. 2 of the mind and body together.

Now, Table 1 in the BMJ paper that Ben cited (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7555/1430) lists the following risk factors as &quot;psychosocial&quot;:
Stress; anxiety; negative mood or emotions; poor cognitive functioning; pain behaviour.

Number 1 in this list of &quot;psychosocial&quot; risk factors is &quot;stress&quot;, which is not mentioned in the Oxford dictionary&#039;s definition of &quot;psychosocial&quot;, but is specifically mentioned in the dictionary&#039;s definition of &quot;psychosomatic&quot;.  So I don&#039;t think you could blame anyone for thinking that the terms &quot;psychosocial&quot; and &quot;psychosomatic&quot; are virtually synonymous.

Perhaps medical professionals use a different definition of &quot;psychosomatic&quot; from that used in everyday language typified by the Oxford Dictionary definition (like the way &quot;significant&quot; has a precise meaning to statisticians which can be at odds with the definition used in ordinary language)?

Ben - it would be really helpful if you could define precisely what you mean by &quot;psychosomatic&quot; and &quot;psychosocial&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not at all surprised that listeners didn&#8217;t know the difference between psychosocial and psychosomatic.  In fact, I&#8217;m not sure what the difference is myself.  The Concise Oxford Dictionary (8th edition) has these definitions:</p>
<p>psychosocial: of or involving the influence of social factors or human interactive behaviour.</p>
<p>psychosomatic: 1 (of an illness, etc.) caused by or aggravated by mental conflict, stress, etc. 2 of the mind and body together.</p>
<p>Now, Table 1 in the BMJ paper that Ben cited (<a href="http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7555/1430" rel="nofollow">http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7555/1430</a>) lists the following risk factors as &#8220;psychosocial&#8221;:<br />
Stress; anxiety; negative mood or emotions; poor cognitive functioning; pain behaviour.</p>
<p>Number 1 in this list of &#8220;psychosocial&#8221; risk factors is &#8220;stress&#8221;, which is not mentioned in the Oxford dictionary&#8217;s definition of &#8220;psychosocial&#8221;, but is specifically mentioned in the dictionary&#8217;s definition of &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221;.  So I don&#8217;t think you could blame anyone for thinking that the terms &#8220;psychosocial&#8221; and &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221; are virtually synonymous.</p>
<p>Perhaps medical professionals use a different definition of &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221; from that used in everyday language typified by the Oxford Dictionary definition (like the way &#8220;significant&#8221; has a precise meaning to statisticians which can be at odds with the definition used in ordinary language)?</p>
<p>Ben &#8211; it would be really helpful if you could define precisely what you mean by &#8220;psychosomatic&#8221; and &#8220;psychosocial&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Camp Freddie</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18095</link>
		<dc:creator>Camp Freddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18095</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid &quot;psychosocial&quot; and &quot;congnitive behaviour therapy&quot; are meaningless words to the vast majority of people.

So people just insert their own definitions based on what the words sound like.

Psychosocial sounds like psychosomatic, which we all know means that someone is not really ill.

Cognitive behaviour therapy sounds like seeing a psychiatrist, which people only do if they&#039;ve got something wrong with their thoughts not their bodies.

Plus, most people can&#039;t accept that something can be &#039;real&#039; and &#039;(partly) in the mind&#039;.  The cognitive dissonance makes misinterpreting the facts very easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid &#8220;psychosocial&#8221; and &#8220;congnitive behaviour therapy&#8221; are meaningless words to the vast majority of people.</p>
<p>So people just insert their own definitions based on what the words sound like.</p>
<p>Psychosocial sounds like psychosomatic, which we all know means that someone is not really ill.</p>
<p>Cognitive behaviour therapy sounds like seeing a psychiatrist, which people only do if they&#8217;ve got something wrong with their thoughts not their bodies.</p>
<p>Plus, most people can&#8217;t accept that something can be &#8216;real&#8217; and &#8216;(partly) in the mind&#8217;.  The cognitive dissonance makes misinterpreting the facts very easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Newman</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18080</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18080</guid>
		<description>Hi Ben,

As a physical therapist I frequently encounter medically unexplained pain.  More commonly, I see erroneously explained pain symptoms, usually in the guise of (or together with) a medical diagnosis.  I can definitely feel your pain of being misperceived. 

I concur with your thoughts that &quot;medically unexplained symptoms and the mechanisms of psychological factors in ill health are officially the most interesting thing in medicine right now&quot;.  I look forward to see what your research and clinical practice produces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>As a physical therapist I frequently encounter medically unexplained pain.  More commonly, I see erroneously explained pain symptoms, usually in the guise of (or together with) a medical diagnosis.  I can definitely feel your pain of being misperceived. </p>
<p>I concur with your thoughts that &#8220;medically unexplained symptoms and the mechanisms of psychological factors in ill health are officially the most interesting thing in medicine right now&#8221;.  I look forward to see what your research and clinical practice produces.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisR</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18074</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18074</guid>
		<description>I heard the live interview and thought that unfortunately Ben did not come across well. He sounded as if he had a pre-prepared point and was going to make it regardless, which to be fair the other interviewee also did. But then Ben used this term &quot;psychosocial&quot; - a word which I, and I imagine many other listeners, was not familiar with. It sounded like the kind of technical jargon that one might hear in a conversation between medics in a hospital. So it rather irritated and turned me off, particularly as Ben didn&#039;t explain clearly what it meant. The audience was left to guess as to its meaning, and clearly some listeners guessed wrongly.

The whole episode was a shame because in general I admire Ben&#039;s communication of medical and scientific issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard the live interview and thought that unfortunately Ben did not come across well. He sounded as if he had a pre-prepared point and was going to make it regardless, which to be fair the other interviewee also did. But then Ben used this term &#8220;psychosocial&#8221; &#8211; a word which I, and I imagine many other listeners, was not familiar with. It sounded like the kind of technical jargon that one might hear in a conversation between medics in a hospital. So it rather irritated and turned me off, particularly as Ben didn&#8217;t explain clearly what it meant. The audience was left to guess as to its meaning, and clearly some listeners guessed wrongly.</p>
<p>The whole episode was a shame because in general I admire Ben&#8217;s communication of medical and scientific issues.</p>
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		<title>By: ips</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18068</link>
		<dc:creator>ips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18068</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link ...its a lot harder than following guidelines when dealing with &#039;functional somatic symptoms&#039;. 
I have no answers but this &#039;grey zone&#039; probably makes up a substantial percentage of work in many health care settings(particularly in General Practice).
http://thebodyhasamindofitsown.com/

This book and the reviews may be interesting. I found it fascinating with explanations and likely mechanisms for many &#039;traditional healing&#039; practices. One of the best &#039;treatments&#039; for these ongoing connundrums is meditation --lots of valid research --costs nothing and does not require anyone else to do it . I am not advocating this as a  panacea due to the obvious social  factors that can&#039;t be eliminated by sitting still !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link &#8230;its a lot harder than following guidelines when dealing with &#8216;functional somatic symptoms&#8217;.<br />
I have no answers but this &#8216;grey zone&#8217; probably makes up a substantial percentage of work in many health care settings(particularly in General Practice).<br />
<a href="http://thebodyhasamindofitsown.com/" rel="nofollow">http://thebodyhasamindofitsown.com/</a></p>
<p>This book and the reviews may be interesting. I found it fascinating with explanations and likely mechanisms for many &#8216;traditional healing&#8217; practices. One of the best &#8216;treatments&#8217; for these ongoing connundrums is meditation &#8211;lots of valid research &#8211;costs nothing and does not require anyone else to do it . I am not advocating this as a  panacea due to the obvious social  factors that can&#8217;t be eliminated by sitting still !</p>
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18016</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18016</guid>
		<description>Sensible, practical advice for clinicians working with functional complaints, including a generic model, can be found here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=1640390&amp;dopt=Citation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sensible, practical advice for clinicians working with functional complaints, including a generic model, can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=1640390&amp;dopt=Citation" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=1640390&amp;dopt=Citation</a></p>
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		<title>By: Victoria</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18014</link>
		<dc:creator>Victoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18014</guid>
		<description>Not sure you should take the listener&#039;s comment too personally. In every Radio 4 debate there&#039;s always at least one angry listener who completely (possibly even willfully) misinterprets what someone says and has a jolly good rant about it. What would be nice is if the original speaker was given time to explain again, in words of one syllable or less...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure you should take the listener&#8217;s comment too personally. In every Radio 4 debate there&#8217;s always at least one angry listener who completely (possibly even willfully) misinterprets what someone says and has a jolly good rant about it. What would be nice is if the original speaker was given time to explain again, in words of one syllable or less&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Harlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-18002</link>
		<dc:creator>Harlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-18002</guid>
		<description>*raygirvan &gt; Citation?*
“Is tuberculosis psychogenic in origin? Can we compare it in this regard with schizophrenia? Certainly, from ancient times until well into the nineteenth century, tuberculosis was considered, at least in part, a result of grief, anxiety, and mental upset. …. The discovery of a specific bacterial etiology produced a lull in the desire to demonstrate a psychogenic factor in tuberculosis.” 
“In the 1950&#039;s, however, there were important alterations in this picture. Following the introduction of specific mycobactericidal therapy, Psychosomatic Medicine, a journal which for its first 15 years had largely ignored tuberculosis, began to accept frequent articles on psychogenic factors in tuberculosis. Mere possession of &quot;magic bullets&quot; had not abolished the disease.”
VAILLANT, GE. Tuberculosis: An Historical Analogy to Schizophrenia Psychosom Med. 1962 May-Jun;24:225-33.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*raygirvan &gt; Citation?*<br />
“Is tuberculosis psychogenic in origin? Can we compare it in this regard with schizophrenia? Certainly, from ancient times until well into the nineteenth century, tuberculosis was considered, at least in part, a result of grief, anxiety, and mental upset. …. The discovery of a specific bacterial etiology produced a lull in the desire to demonstrate a psychogenic factor in tuberculosis.”<br />
“In the 1950&#8217;s, however, there were important alterations in this picture. Following the introduction of specific mycobactericidal therapy, Psychosomatic Medicine, a journal which for its first 15 years had largely ignored tuberculosis, began to accept frequent articles on psychogenic factors in tuberculosis. Mere possession of &#8220;magic bullets&#8221; had not abolished the disease.”<br />
VAILLANT, GE. Tuberculosis: An Historical Analogy to Schizophrenia Psychosom Med. 1962 May-Jun;24:225-33.</p>
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		<title>By: LadyHP</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17989</link>
		<dc:creator>LadyHP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17989</guid>
		<description>&quot;But if we accept, in the case of back pain, that acupuncture may in part be a surrogate psychosocial intervention or theatrical placebo, then it’s a pretty expensive one. Maybe we could consider pushing for other options, less expensive and less fashionable, such as brief education interventions, public health information programmes, perhaps cognitive behavioural therapy, and so on.&quot;
That&#039;s an interesting suggestion, but hasn&#039;t it also been proved:
a) that an expensive placebo works better than a cheap one?
b) that a placebo that focuses on the patient as a specific person (listens to him, as most good acupuncturists and homeopaths would) works better than an impersonal one (such as &quot;public health information programmes&quot;, or to a lesser extent, the 20-minute check-out where your GP ticks a few boxes)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But if we accept, in the case of back pain, that acupuncture may in part be a surrogate psychosocial intervention or theatrical placebo, then it’s a pretty expensive one. Maybe we could consider pushing for other options, less expensive and less fashionable, such as brief education interventions, public health information programmes, perhaps cognitive behavioural therapy, and so on.&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s an interesting suggestion, but hasn&#8217;t it also been proved:<br />
a) that an expensive placebo works better than a cheap one?<br />
b) that a placebo that focuses on the patient as a specific person (listens to him, as most good acupuncturists and homeopaths would) works better than an impersonal one (such as &#8220;public health information programmes&#8221;, or to a lesser extent, the 20-minute check-out where your GP ticks a few boxes)?</p>
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		<title>By: raygirvan</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17985</link>
		<dc:creator>raygirvan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17985</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Harlequin &gt; TB was considered by some to be psychosomatic before the discovery of the bacillus&lt;/i&gt;

Citation? Spitting blood and observable lung damage were a bit of a giveaway that it wasn&#039;t. The psychosomatic angle came after the discovery of the bacillus, particularly through the work of Thomas Holmes. His studies - still valid, I think, looked at the role of stress in infection: (a) why not everyone infected with the bacillus got ill, and b) how mindset and stress factors affected the chance of recovery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Harlequin &gt; TB was considered by some to be psychosomatic before the discovery of the bacillus</i></p>
<p>Citation? Spitting blood and observable lung damage were a bit of a giveaway that it wasn&#8217;t. The psychosomatic angle came after the discovery of the bacillus, particularly through the work of Thomas Holmes. His studies &#8211; still valid, I think, looked at the role of stress in infection: (a) why not everyone infected with the bacillus got ill, and b) how mindset and stress factors affected the chance of recovery.</p>
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		<title>By: Squander Two</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17984</link>
		<dc:creator>Squander Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17984</guid>
		<description>Acleron,

&lt;i&gt;&gt; They are already obfuscating the sham vs non-sham by vague comments of closeness of needles and depth.&lt;/i&gt;

While their comments may be vague, surely they&#039;re not irrational.  No-one&#039;s seriously suggesting (are they?) that sticking a needle into someone&#039;s flesh has &lt;i&gt;no&lt;/i&gt; effect, so it seems reasonable to suppose that how deep you stick the needles, how many needles you stick in, and how closely together you stick them should affect that effect.  If suggestions of what the effect is are vague, then I&#039;d&#039;ve thought more research would be a better idea than outright dismissal.  After all, pretty much every bit of scientific knowledge we have started out as vague, then got more precise as a result of experimentation.


misterjohn,

&lt;i&gt;&gt; It’s interesting how the chiropractor leaps in to say “We don’t just do spinal manipulation”, having been told that it has a negative impact on recovery!&lt;/i&gt;

Purely anecdotal, but a chiropractor cured my back pain where all my GP was interested in doing was prescribing me ibuprofen.  (Regardless of the efficacy of ibuprofen, I still resent being given a prescription for it, enabling me to buy for a mere 6 quid what would usually cost me 50p.)  Certainly didn&#039;t have a negative impact on my recovery, and I know it wasn&#039;t purely psychosomatic for the simple reason that my hamstrings are now demonstrably longer than they were, demonstrated through simple before-and-after trying-to-touch-my-toes experiments.  (Took me bloody months of stretching).

Anyway, like I said, I know that&#039;s anecdotal, but it still illustrates a point.  I think a big problem with back pain is the same as with the common cold: there is no such thing as the common cold; it is merely a catch-all phrase for a very large number of different viruses, all of which provoke similar reactions from our immune systems and therefore appear the same if you look at symptoms instead of causes.  This is why science, as we are so often told, &quot;has yet to come up with a cure for the common cold&quot;.  Same with &quot;back pain&quot;: that&#039;s not a disease, it&#039;s a symptom.  So talk of whether chiropractic -- or anything else -- works on it is doomed to inaccuracy.  Chiropractic certainly does work on some problems which lead to back pain, and probably doesn&#039;t work on some others.  Same as ibuprofen.  Looking at a group of patients with back pain and discovering that cure A makes 80% of them worse and 20% of them better tells you that you have at least two different causes of back pain, not that cure A doesn&#039;t work.


As for people&#039;s tendency to think that &quot;psychological&quot; means &quot;not real&quot;, I blame that Descartes.  The problem is that most people don&#039;t think that what goes on in their minds is a part of their body.  Whereas, in fact, psychological is a subclass of physical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acleron,</p>
<p><i>&gt; They are already obfuscating the sham vs non-sham by vague comments of closeness of needles and depth.</i></p>
<p>While their comments may be vague, surely they&#8217;re not irrational.  No-one&#8217;s seriously suggesting (are they?) that sticking a needle into someone&#8217;s flesh has <i>no</i> effect, so it seems reasonable to suppose that how deep you stick the needles, how many needles you stick in, and how closely together you stick them should affect that effect.  If suggestions of what the effect is are vague, then I&#8217;d've thought more research would be a better idea than outright dismissal.  After all, pretty much every bit of scientific knowledge we have started out as vague, then got more precise as a result of experimentation.</p>
<p>misterjohn,</p>
<p><i>&gt; It’s interesting how the chiropractor leaps in to say “We don’t just do spinal manipulation”, having been told that it has a negative impact on recovery!</i></p>
<p>Purely anecdotal, but a chiropractor cured my back pain where all my GP was interested in doing was prescribing me ibuprofen.  (Regardless of the efficacy of ibuprofen, I still resent being given a prescription for it, enabling me to buy for a mere 6 quid what would usually cost me 50p.)  Certainly didn&#8217;t have a negative impact on my recovery, and I know it wasn&#8217;t purely psychosomatic for the simple reason that my hamstrings are now demonstrably longer than they were, demonstrated through simple before-and-after trying-to-touch-my-toes experiments.  (Took me bloody months of stretching).</p>
<p>Anyway, like I said, I know that&#8217;s anecdotal, but it still illustrates a point.  I think a big problem with back pain is the same as with the common cold: there is no such thing as the common cold; it is merely a catch-all phrase for a very large number of different viruses, all of which provoke similar reactions from our immune systems and therefore appear the same if you look at symptoms instead of causes.  This is why science, as we are so often told, &#8220;has yet to come up with a cure for the common cold&#8221;.  Same with &#8220;back pain&#8221;: that&#8217;s not a disease, it&#8217;s a symptom.  So talk of whether chiropractic &#8212; or anything else &#8212; works on it is doomed to inaccuracy.  Chiropractic certainly does work on some problems which lead to back pain, and probably doesn&#8217;t work on some others.  Same as ibuprofen.  Looking at a group of patients with back pain and discovering that cure A makes 80% of them worse and 20% of them better tells you that you have at least two different causes of back pain, not that cure A doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>As for people&#8217;s tendency to think that &#8220;psychological&#8221; means &#8220;not real&#8221;, I blame that Descartes.  The problem is that most people don&#8217;t think that what goes on in their minds is a part of their body.  Whereas, in fact, psychological is a subclass of physical.</p>
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		<title>By: Bass Tyrrell</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17974</link>
		<dc:creator>Bass Tyrrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17974</guid>
		<description>What has happened over the years to all the &quot;r&quot;s people (who possibly don&#039;t know their &quot;r&quot;s from their elbows?) drop out of my name? There must be a pile of them around somewhere! Still it is an illustration of the general effect, phayes saw what he expected to see (though why it is generally expected is another question: we outnumber the one r&#039;d variant by about 20 to 1) not what was actually there: just as the complainer on the show heard what he expected to hear (&quot;faker&quot;) rather than &quot;complex psychological causes&quot;. Grr. (Actually, it was also interesting that he was quite happy for other people to be considered a &quot;lot of schmucks out there that want to sit around and skive off work every day&quot; he just wanted to be clear that he wasn&#039;t!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has happened over the years to all the &#8220;r&#8221;s people (who possibly don&#8217;t know their &#8220;r&#8221;s from their elbows?) drop out of my name? There must be a pile of them around somewhere! Still it is an illustration of the general effect, phayes saw what he expected to see (though why it is generally expected is another question: we outnumber the one r&#8217;d variant by about 20 to 1) not what was actually there: just as the complainer on the show heard what he expected to hear (&#8220;faker&#8221;) rather than &#8220;complex psychological causes&#8221;. Grr. (Actually, it was also interesting that he was quite happy for other people to be considered a &#8220;lot of schmucks out there that want to sit around and skive off work every day&#8221; he just wanted to be clear that he wasn&#8217;t!</p>
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		<title>By: phayes</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17973</link>
		<dc:creator>phayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17973</guid>
		<description>&quot;Another comment in the feedback seems to me worthy of a follow up (column?), and that was the old saw about children and animals.&quot; (Bass Tyrell).

I agree. What, if anything, is known about this? I&#039;d guess placebo could work on at least some non-human species and the only claims I recall seeing about acupuncture or homeopathy working on animals were anecdotal and looked like the association implies causality fallacy anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Another comment in the feedback seems to me worthy of a follow up (column?), and that was the old saw about children and animals.&#8221; (Bass Tyrell).</p>
<p>I agree. What, if anything, is known about this? I&#8217;d guess placebo could work on at least some non-human species and the only claims I recall seeing about acupuncture or homeopathy working on animals were anecdotal and looked like the association implies causality fallacy anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Bass Tyrrell</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17972</link>
		<dc:creator>Bass Tyrrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17972</guid>
		<description>Gramlin, I think the minister was basically a politician and had learned the basic media trick of &quot;choose your story and stick to it&quot;. The interviewer did try a little to get him to go on to the interesting part - the success of the placebo trial - but he skated over it and returned to his chosen point. 

The letter writer did get the wrong end of the stick of course, the question being (as Ben acknowledges in this piece) whether the use of a term, &quot;psychosocial&quot;, that probably wasn&#039;t familiar yet managed from its sound to have negative connotations for that individual helped trigger him to dive headlong for the wrong end of that stick.

Communication is key, and the way of engaging with the audience can grab them or put them off. Ben&#039;s stuff is at the forefront of communicating about science because he does it so well, making the ideas quite simple so that lay people can easily grasp them. 

I still think it was the wrong tack to take on the programme itself though. It would have been ideal for a general discussion on back pain: &quot;yes, acupuncture (and fake acupuncture) have been shown to be effective. Equally effective (n.b. I don&#039;t know this for sure) and cheaper is taking 2 paracetamol and going for a 10 km walk every day for a month.&quot; But on the back of the study that was under discussion, it might have been better to be more positive while emphasising that placebo acupuncture worked just as well and talk less about the cost-effectiveness. But then stick me in front of a mike and all you would have heard is ers and ums.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gramlin, I think the minister was basically a politician and had learned the basic media trick of &#8220;choose your story and stick to it&#8221;. The interviewer did try a little to get him to go on to the interesting part &#8211; the success of the placebo trial &#8211; but he skated over it and returned to his chosen point. </p>
<p>The letter writer did get the wrong end of the stick of course, the question being (as Ben acknowledges in this piece) whether the use of a term, &#8220;psychosocial&#8221;, that probably wasn&#8217;t familiar yet managed from its sound to have negative connotations for that individual helped trigger him to dive headlong for the wrong end of that stick.</p>
<p>Communication is key, and the way of engaging with the audience can grab them or put them off. Ben&#8217;s stuff is at the forefront of communicating about science because he does it so well, making the ideas quite simple so that lay people can easily grasp them. </p>
<p>I still think it was the wrong tack to take on the programme itself though. It would have been ideal for a general discussion on back pain: &#8220;yes, acupuncture (and fake acupuncture) have been shown to be effective. Equally effective (n.b. I don&#8217;t know this for sure) and cheaper is taking 2 paracetamol and going for a 10 km walk every day for a month.&#8221; But on the back of the study that was under discussion, it might have been better to be more positive while emphasising that placebo acupuncture worked just as well and talk less about the cost-effectiveness. But then stick me in front of a mike and all you would have heard is ers and ums.</p>
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		<title>By: Harlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17970</link>
		<dc:creator>Harlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17970</guid>
		<description>TB was considered by some to be psychosomatic before the discovery of the bacillus. And many present-day patients with debilitating but unexplained symptoms are used to being fobbed off with variants of the &#039;psychosocial&#039; diagnosis. In such cases, the attitude of the Department for Work and Pensions to unexplained illness can be as or more crucial to patients&#039; wellbeing than the opinions of the doctors and the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TB was considered by some to be psychosomatic before the discovery of the bacillus. And many present-day patients with debilitating but unexplained symptoms are used to being fobbed off with variants of the &#8216;psychosocial&#8217; diagnosis. In such cases, the attitude of the Department for Work and Pensions to unexplained illness can be as or more crucial to patients&#8217; wellbeing than the opinions of the doctors and the media.</p>
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		<title>By: misterjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/comment-page-1/#comment-17969</link>
		<dc:creator>misterjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/bmj-column-beware-of-mentioning-psychosocial-factors/#comment-17969</guid>
		<description>The BBC refers to some more research about treatment of lower back pain on this link;-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7084644.stm

It&#039;s interesting how the chiropractor leaps in to say &quot;We don&#039;t just do spinal manipulation&quot;, having been told that it has a negative impact on recovery!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The BBC refers to some more research about treatment of lower back pain on this link;-</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7084644.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7084644.stm</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting how the chiropractor leaps in to say &#8220;We don&#8217;t just do spinal manipulation&#8221;, having been told that it has a negative impact on recovery!</p>
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