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	<title>Comments on: The least surrogate outcome</title>
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	<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/</link>
	<description>Ben Goldacre&#039;s Bad Science column from the Guardian and more...</description>
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		<title>By: sideshowjim</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20429</link>
		<dc:creator>sideshowjim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20429</guid>
		<description>I guess that Dunning-Kruger thing explains most of the contestants on the apprentice...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that Dunning-Kruger thing explains most of the contestants on the apprentice&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: heavens</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20413</link>
		<dc:creator>heavens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20413</guid>
		<description>I also want to know:  Do the less competent people in these studies tend to think that &quot;success&quot; (as measured, say, by grades in school) is a matter of luck?  

If you&#039;re really bad at predicting when you&#039;ve done well, then &quot;good scores seem to be random,&quot; or at least outside my control, would eventually seem like a reasonable interpretation of your data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also want to know:  Do the less competent people in these studies tend to think that &#8220;success&#8221; (as measured, say, by grades in school) is a matter of luck?  </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re really bad at predicting when you&#8217;ve done well, then &#8220;good scores seem to be random,&#8221; or at least outside my control, would eventually seem like a reasonable interpretation of your data.</p>
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		<title>By: heavens</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20411</link>
		<dc:creator>heavens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20411</guid>
		<description>I think that participants in these studies may have had trouble adjusting their perception of the group to match the actual group.  

If we measured IQ for the people I&#039;m around regularly, most of my friends -- my default &quot;peer group&quot; -- would probably score more than one standard deviation above the national median.  So when I told myself in school that I was perfectly normal, I meant that I was &quot;perfectly normal, compared to the top 3% of students in the nation,&quot; not &quot;perfectly normal compared to the average student in the entire country.&quot;

In the absence of substantial information about the other people in a study, I would likely tend to underestimate my performance:  I happen to do well with logic puzzles and grammar, but surely there will be several people in the room who will do better, because I&#039;m &quot;perfectly normal.&quot; 

I assume that the same logic works for the bottom quartile:  they are &quot;perfectly normal&quot; -- compared to their internalized peer group, which is almost certainly other people who get lousy marks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that participants in these studies may have had trouble adjusting their perception of the group to match the actual group.  </p>
<p>If we measured IQ for the people I&#8217;m around regularly, most of my friends &#8212; my default &#8220;peer group&#8221; &#8212; would probably score more than one standard deviation above the national median.  So when I told myself in school that I was perfectly normal, I meant that I was &#8220;perfectly normal, compared to the top 3% of students in the nation,&#8221; not &#8220;perfectly normal compared to the average student in the entire country.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the absence of substantial information about the other people in a study, I would likely tend to underestimate my performance:  I happen to do well with logic puzzles and grammar, but surely there will be several people in the room who will do better, because I&#8217;m &#8220;perfectly normal.&#8221; </p>
<p>I assume that the same logic works for the bottom quartile:  they are &#8220;perfectly normal&#8221; &#8212; compared to their internalized peer group, which is almost certainly other people who get lousy marks.</p>
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		<title>By: THM</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20406</link>
		<dc:creator>THM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20406</guid>
		<description>I read the Dunning-Kruger paper and thought of other people. But then - wouldn&#039;t everyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read the Dunning-Kruger paper and thought of other people. But then &#8211; wouldn&#8217;t everyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Horder</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20393</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Horder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20393</guid>
		<description>shmuck: In cases like this the understanding is that journal papers contain sufficient information that readers can get an accurate idea of the tests used. If you want to get all the details they are taken to be available on request from the authors (or, increasingly nowadays, they are made available as &quot;Additional Material&quot; online). It would take up a lot of space if this kind of thing was included in the main text of every article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shmuck: In cases like this the understanding is that journal papers contain sufficient information that readers can get an accurate idea of the tests used. If you want to get all the details they are taken to be available on request from the authors (or, increasingly nowadays, they are made available as &#8220;Additional Material&#8221; online). It would take up a lot of space if this kind of thing was included in the main text of every article.</p>
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		<title>By: Natorum</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20392</link>
		<dc:creator>Natorum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 08:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20392</guid>
		<description>I have a copy of the wiki page for Dunning-Kruger pinned to my desk at work. I&#039;m sure the irony is lost on management.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a copy of the wiki page for Dunning-Kruger pinned to my desk at work. I&#8217;m sure the irony is lost on management.</p>
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		<title>By: shmuck</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20391</link>
		<dc:creator>shmuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 05:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20391</guid>
		<description>So I was about to ask, incredulously, how they could test for humor. Then I just went ahead and read the paper - I&#039;d love to get my hands on the test that they used, along with the accepted answers. 

They only give two example questions - is that acceptable in this sort of paper? I&#039;m a physics student and I don&#039;t know much of anything about practices in psychology, but when we are writing a paper like this we are expected to give sufficient information such that another physicist could duplicate the experiment. I would think that that would require making the actual questions that were asked available somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I was about to ask, incredulously, how they could test for humor. Then I just went ahead and read the paper &#8211; I&#8217;d love to get my hands on the test that they used, along with the accepted answers. </p>
<p>They only give two example questions &#8211; is that acceptable in this sort of paper? I&#8217;m a physics student and I don&#8217;t know much of anything about practices in psychology, but when we are writing a paper like this we are expected to give sufficient information such that another physicist could duplicate the experiment. I would think that that would require making the actual questions that were asked available somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitton</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20376</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20376</guid>
		<description>There is a US baseball expression which always makes me think of Tony Blair: Somebody who was born on third base and goes through life thinking he has hit a triple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a US baseball expression which always makes me think of Tony Blair: Somebody who was born on third base and goes through life thinking he has hit a triple.</p>
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		<title>By: RS</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20372</link>
		<dc:creator>RS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 12:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20372</guid>
		<description>gimpy - difficult to claim a real fall in drug deaths just by increasing the denominator by adding in a likely highly atypical new immigrant population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gimpy &#8211; difficult to claim a real fall in drug deaths just by increasing the denominator by adding in a likely highly atypical new immigrant population.</p>
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		<title>By: muscleman</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20370</link>
		<dc:creator>muscleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20370</guid>
		<description>Pzoot the reason I think that the most competent underestimate their abilities is because to get very competent you need a culture of striving all the time to improve. Which requires that you have a vision of perfection that you are trying to reach, and of course you never do. Those who are not comptetent measure themselves against simple competence which is a different thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pzoot the reason I think that the most competent underestimate their abilities is because to get very competent you need a culture of striving all the time to improve. Which requires that you have a vision of perfection that you are trying to reach, and of course you never do. Those who are not comptetent measure themselves against simple competence which is a different thing.</p>
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		<title>By: gimpyblog</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20369</link>
		<dc:creator>gimpyblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20369</guid>
		<description>stever what do the per capita drugs death figures look like?  Surely this would be a better way of determining a rise or fall in the number of deaths due to drugs.  What with the recent immigration it might mean that the per capita figure gives a lower value than simply recording the number of deaths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>stever what do the per capita drugs death figures look like?  Surely this would be a better way of determining a rise or fall in the number of deaths due to drugs.  What with the recent immigration it might mean that the per capita figure gives a lower value than simply recording the number of deaths.</p>
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		<title>By: stever</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20368</link>
		<dc:creator>stever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20368</guid>
		<description>They may lack the sophistication to understand the death stats but the Government do not lack competence in spinning the stats to their advantage. (see http://www.tdpf.org.uk/Policy_General_DrugPolicy.htm for more discussion) 

In last years drug strategy consultation document they claimed: &quot;Drug-related deaths have fallen from 1,538 in 1999 to 1506 in 2005&quot; [1].

well....

- The Government claims drug-related deaths have fallen very slightly, the consultation document describes a fall of 2% between 1999 and 2005, a statistically insignificant fall of 32.

- The source for this claim is unclear, however, as the reference given is for a report which looks at drug deaths between 2000 and 2004 [2].

- It is also noteworthy that the Government has chosen to quote the level of drug-related deaths in 1999 as a benchmark rather than 1998 which has a higher figure but is the benchmark year used for other statistics in the document. The annual drug death figures are very volatile from year to year (indicating problems with the measures, and with using them as a measure of success), allowing them to be easily cherry picked to show success where none is evident.

- According to the latest Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures [3], drug-related deaths have actually risen by just over 10% from 1,457 in 1998 to 1,608 in 2005.

N:B the true level of drug-related deaths is likely to be higher than ONS suggests as its figures only include deaths which are directly linked to drug use and occur shortly after use (and which are recorded on death certificates). Its figures do not include deaths caused by longer term use such as respiratory diseases, nor does it include deaths from indirect causes such as infectious diseases, car accidents and violence. [4]
 
The United Kingdom has the 2nd highest rate of drug-related deaths in Europe [5].
  

1. Drug Strategy consultation document : “Our communities : your say”, 25 th July 2007, Key Facts (Annex A)

2. Health Statistics Quarterly Spring 2006, Office for National Statistics

3. Health Statistics Quarterly Spring 2007, Table 3, page 86, Office for National Statistics

4. For more discussion and data see the Transform Fact research Guide to drug deaths here: http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_FactResearchGuide.htm

5. European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, 2006 Annual Report.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They may lack the sophistication to understand the death stats but the Government do not lack competence in spinning the stats to their advantage. (see <a href="http://www.tdpf.org.uk/Policy_General_DrugPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdpf.org.uk/Policy_General_DrugPolicy.htm</a> for more discussion) </p>
<p>In last years drug strategy consultation document they claimed: &#8220;Drug-related deaths have fallen from 1,538 in 1999 to 1506 in 2005&#8243; [1].</p>
<p>well&#8230;.</p>
<p>- The Government claims drug-related deaths have fallen very slightly, the consultation document describes a fall of 2% between 1999 and 2005, a statistically insignificant fall of 32.</p>
<p>- The source for this claim is unclear, however, as the reference given is for a report which looks at drug deaths between 2000 and 2004 [2].</p>
<p>- It is also noteworthy that the Government has chosen to quote the level of drug-related deaths in 1999 as a benchmark rather than 1998 which has a higher figure but is the benchmark year used for other statistics in the document. The annual drug death figures are very volatile from year to year (indicating problems with the measures, and with using them as a measure of success), allowing them to be easily cherry picked to show success where none is evident.</p>
<p>- According to the latest Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures [3], drug-related deaths have actually risen by just over 10% from 1,457 in 1998 to 1,608 in 2005.</p>
<p>N:B the true level of drug-related deaths is likely to be higher than ONS suggests as its figures only include deaths which are directly linked to drug use and occur shortly after use (and which are recorded on death certificates). Its figures do not include deaths caused by longer term use such as respiratory diseases, nor does it include deaths from indirect causes such as infectious diseases, car accidents and violence. [4]</p>
<p>The United Kingdom has the 2nd highest rate of drug-related deaths in Europe [5].</p>
<p>1. Drug Strategy consultation document : “Our communities : your say”, 25 th July 2007, Key Facts (Annex A)</p>
<p>2. Health Statistics Quarterly Spring 2006, Office for National Statistics</p>
<p>3. Health Statistics Quarterly Spring 2007, Table 3, page 86, Office for National Statistics</p>
<p>4. For more discussion and data see the Transform Fact research Guide to drug deaths here: <a href="http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_FactResearchGuide.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_FactResearchGuide.htm</a></p>
<p>5. European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, 2006 Annual Report.</p>
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		<title>By: frontierpsychiatrist</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20367</link>
		<dc:creator>frontierpsychiatrist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20367</guid>
		<description>Before we all tell ourselves that we&#039;d never act in anything other than a rational way, it&#039;s worth mentioning in the fundamental attribution error:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

(nb: beloved of the membership exam of the Royal college of psychiatrists)

Basically we&#039;ve all a tendency  to think that our shortcomings are to do with bad luck (i.e. situational), but everyone else had theirs coming to them (i.e. dispositional).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before we all tell ourselves that we&#8217;d never act in anything other than a rational way, it&#8217;s worth mentioning in the fundamental attribution error:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error</a></p>
<p>(nb: beloved of the membership exam of the Royal college of psychiatrists)</p>
<p>Basically we&#8217;ve all a tendency  to think that our shortcomings are to do with bad luck (i.e. situational), but everyone else had theirs coming to them (i.e. dispositional).</p>
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		<title>By: Kess</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20365</link>
		<dc:creator>Kess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 07:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20365</guid>
		<description>So most normal people tend to underestimate their abilities, but the truly incompetent overestimate theirs.

That probably explains why the most clueless managers always seem to get promoted at my workplace!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So most normal people tend to underestimate their abilities, but the truly incompetent overestimate theirs.</p>
<p>That probably explains why the most clueless managers always seem to get promoted at my workplace!</p>
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		<title>By: pzoot</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2008/04/the-least-surrogate-outcome/comment-page-1/#comment-20364</link>
		<dc:creator>pzoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=653#comment-20364</guid>
		<description>Re: being incompetent to assay your own competence: the Kruger and Dunning paper does discuss the finding that the most able also tended to underestimate their ability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: being incompetent to assay your own competence: the Kruger and Dunning paper does discuss the finding that the most able also tended to underestimate their ability.</p>
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