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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;We are more possible than you can powerfully imagine&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/</link>
	<description>Ben Goldacre&#039;s Bad Science column from the Guardian and more...</description>
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		<title>By: Morningbird</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-36184</link>
		<dc:creator>Morningbird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-36184</guid>
		<description>Very late in the day, but feel compelled to leave a comment in support of McTimoney Chiropractic, despite my support for the efforts of Simon and bloggers to expose the bad science of the chiropractic community. After having one session with a standard chiropractor I couldn&#039;t believe that anyone went back for a second treatment after such torture, so I was recommended to try McTimoney C.   Was treated by an MC for back and neck pain and a problem I had lived with for years as a result of a car crash (not being able to lay my arm flat on the floor when lying down) disappeared within a few weeks.   I visited her subsequently for neck pain several times in the next five years and each time the pain disappeared.    Gainsayers will say that the pain would probably have gone away anyway, but on one occasion I was forced to wait much longer than I would have done (I was away from home) and the pain simply got worse and worse until I had treatment.   I find it hard to believe this is placebo; it&#039;s certainly not massage because there isn&#039;t any - in the chiropractic I&#039;ve received at any rate.  Even if it is placebo however, I really don&#039;t care.  Anything to relieve that pain.  We really do need a middle way here, for researchers to investigate why so many people continue to pay for a treatment that is apparently bogus but which works for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very late in the day, but feel compelled to leave a comment in support of McTimoney Chiropractic, despite my support for the efforts of Simon and bloggers to expose the bad science of the chiropractic community. After having one session with a standard chiropractor I couldn&#8217;t believe that anyone went back for a second treatment after such torture, so I was recommended to try McTimoney C.   Was treated by an MC for back and neck pain and a problem I had lived with for years as a result of a car crash (not being able to lay my arm flat on the floor when lying down) disappeared within a few weeks.   I visited her subsequently for neck pain several times in the next five years and each time the pain disappeared.    Gainsayers will say that the pain would probably have gone away anyway, but on one occasion I was forced to wait much longer than I would have done (I was away from home) and the pain simply got worse and worse until I had treatment.   I find it hard to believe this is placebo; it&#8217;s certainly not massage because there isn&#8217;t any &#8211; in the chiropractic I&#8217;ve received at any rate.  Even if it is placebo however, I really don&#8217;t care.  Anything to relieve that pain.  We really do need a middle way here, for researchers to investigate why so many people continue to pay for a treatment that is apparently bogus but which works for them.</p>
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		<title>By: jesgol</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-30447</link>
		<dc:creator>jesgol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-30447</guid>
		<description>This blog will be long winded, but it is needed to explain the many topics discussed above. I urge you to discuss this topic, but give chiropractors the chance to have their say too.

This article is a perfect example of why Simon Singh is being sued. It starts by showing a one-sided view that costs a significant loss of time, comes full circle to the admission that chiropractic helps people, and then some moron trying to plug their website - after all, its all just media hype.

I am the first to admit chiropractic is a limited scope practice. Just as neurosurgeons don&#039;t treat ingrown toenails, chiropractors are limited to their own field of expertise. The reason that research into the treatment for infantile colic was carried out in the first place has nothing to do with smoke nor mirrors. When treating patients for neuro-musculo-skeletal disorders they noticed a reduction in other symptoms, such as the reduced frequency of colic-like episodes. Would it really be feasible to spend all that money and time on a stab in the dark? Unfortunately this body of evidence is confined to a collective of anecdotal evidence - not accepted by modern science, which sets double blind randomized controlled trials as the gold standard. Research like this is expensive and difficult to do. We don&#039;t have a multi-billion pound pharmaceutical industry driving our profession nor the facilities to do it. 

Also it is difficult to provide consistent data in these trials, as with the complexity of what we treat. Not everyone needs X amount of treatments - some people need half and some people need twice as much, which boils down to clinical experience and medical knowledge. These conditions are so subjective and multifactorial that a biomedical approach of &quot;take two of these and call me in the morning&quot; does not work with the chiropractic, which follows a biopsychosocial approach. I completely agree that there is a lot more evidence needed to back up the claims about infantile colic etc. and I&#039;m afraid that might never happen with the bad, newspaper selling, dogmatic press it gets. 

Some of the views concerning the origins of chiropractic are misplaced. The article is correct in stating it was D.D. Palmer, a magnetic healer, founded chiropractic a few years after osteopathy was born and around the time that x-rays were discovered. As it was back then, Palmer placed great importance on the subluxation theory as the cause of dis-ease (please note the hyphenated word dis-ease). I would like that citation about professing himself akin Christ! Haha that seems nonsense. No doubt chiropractic in its infancy had some idiosyncrasies that are laughable with the knowledge we have now. In this it is not alone. Look at the somewhat archaic practice of using leeches for blood letting, that has been reborn into modern medicine for the use in stimulating blood flow in severed limbs. The principle was hit and miss yes, but in practice it is significant.

Is chiropractic dangerous? Really? Perhaps over dramatized by Hollywood I would expect. There are two schools of thought. 1) chiropractic directly causes strokes (stoppage of blood to the brain) through occluding or even rupturing the vertebral artery during a cervical adjustment and it happens A LOT! (scientifically unknown). 2) The incidence of stroke post-chiropractic care is 1 in 1.3 million cervical adjustments, which is no higher than the risk of stroke within the general population and, if not a mere incidental finding, beyond that deemed a medical risk. 

Killing a patient by direct intervention is called man slaughter and often results in a trial and sentencing. You&#039;d think with this &quot;risk&quot; you&#039;d hear more about these incidences! The truth is that some people have strokes. And people who have strokes often have neck pain. And people with neck pain often seek chiropractic care. The result? A few people have a stroke after receiving chiropractic care. It&#039;s like walking down the street and seeing a car crash. Did you cause that car crash? No, because some cars crash and a lot of cars drive on the road, and you walk a lot next to roads.

There are people in every profession who see a good opportunity to abuse their position to make money, and sadly chiropractic is not exempt from that. I would like to think that those who put their own priorities before those of their patients are heading for a downfall and are subject to Darwin&#039;s theory of evolution. For this reason I suggest that you visit a chiropractor on good recommendation, and should you have a favourable experience with a chiropractor, shout about it. 

P.S. Edzard Ernst picks and chooses his evidence, so the basis for chirobase.org being reputable is void. He has been invited to openly discuss his views many times and has sadly declined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This blog will be long winded, but it is needed to explain the many topics discussed above. I urge you to discuss this topic, but give chiropractors the chance to have their say too.</p>
<p>This article is a perfect example of why Simon Singh is being sued. It starts by showing a one-sided view that costs a significant loss of time, comes full circle to the admission that chiropractic helps people, and then some moron trying to plug their website &#8211; after all, its all just media hype.</p>
<p>I am the first to admit chiropractic is a limited scope practice. Just as neurosurgeons don&#8217;t treat ingrown toenails, chiropractors are limited to their own field of expertise. The reason that research into the treatment for infantile colic was carried out in the first place has nothing to do with smoke nor mirrors. When treating patients for neuro-musculo-skeletal disorders they noticed a reduction in other symptoms, such as the reduced frequency of colic-like episodes. Would it really be feasible to spend all that money and time on a stab in the dark? Unfortunately this body of evidence is confined to a collective of anecdotal evidence &#8211; not accepted by modern science, which sets double blind randomized controlled trials as the gold standard. Research like this is expensive and difficult to do. We don&#8217;t have a multi-billion pound pharmaceutical industry driving our profession nor the facilities to do it. </p>
<p>Also it is difficult to provide consistent data in these trials, as with the complexity of what we treat. Not everyone needs X amount of treatments &#8211; some people need half and some people need twice as much, which boils down to clinical experience and medical knowledge. These conditions are so subjective and multifactorial that a biomedical approach of &#8220;take two of these and call me in the morning&#8221; does not work with the chiropractic, which follows a biopsychosocial approach. I completely agree that there is a lot more evidence needed to back up the claims about infantile colic etc. and I&#8217;m afraid that might never happen with the bad, newspaper selling, dogmatic press it gets. </p>
<p>Some of the views concerning the origins of chiropractic are misplaced. The article is correct in stating it was D.D. Palmer, a magnetic healer, founded chiropractic a few years after osteopathy was born and around the time that x-rays were discovered. As it was back then, Palmer placed great importance on the subluxation theory as the cause of dis-ease (please note the hyphenated word dis-ease). I would like that citation about professing himself akin Christ! Haha that seems nonsense. No doubt chiropractic in its infancy had some idiosyncrasies that are laughable with the knowledge we have now. In this it is not alone. Look at the somewhat archaic practice of using leeches for blood letting, that has been reborn into modern medicine for the use in stimulating blood flow in severed limbs. The principle was hit and miss yes, but in practice it is significant.</p>
<p>Is chiropractic dangerous? Really? Perhaps over dramatized by Hollywood I would expect. There are two schools of thought. 1) chiropractic directly causes strokes (stoppage of blood to the brain) through occluding or even rupturing the vertebral artery during a cervical adjustment and it happens A LOT! (scientifically unknown). 2) The incidence of stroke post-chiropractic care is 1 in 1.3 million cervical adjustments, which is no higher than the risk of stroke within the general population and, if not a mere incidental finding, beyond that deemed a medical risk. </p>
<p>Killing a patient by direct intervention is called man slaughter and often results in a trial and sentencing. You&#8217;d think with this &#8220;risk&#8221; you&#8217;d hear more about these incidences! The truth is that some people have strokes. And people who have strokes often have neck pain. And people with neck pain often seek chiropractic care. The result? A few people have a stroke after receiving chiropractic care. It&#8217;s like walking down the street and seeing a car crash. Did you cause that car crash? No, because some cars crash and a lot of cars drive on the road, and you walk a lot next to roads.</p>
<p>There are people in every profession who see a good opportunity to abuse their position to make money, and sadly chiropractic is not exempt from that. I would like to think that those who put their own priorities before those of their patients are heading for a downfall and are subject to Darwin&#8217;s theory of evolution. For this reason I suggest that you visit a chiropractor on good recommendation, and should you have a favourable experience with a chiropractor, shout about it. </p>
<p>P.S. Edzard Ernst picks and chooses his evidence, so the basis for <a href="http://chirobase.org" class="autohyperlink" title="http://chirobase.org" target="_blank">chirobase.org</a> being reputable is void. He has been invited to openly discuss his views many times and has sadly declined.</p>
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		<title>By: wayscj</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-29018</link>
		<dc:creator>wayscj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-29018</guid>
		<description>ed hardy &lt;a title=&quot;ed hardy&quot; href=&quot;http://www.edhardyworld.co.uk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;ed hardy&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ed hardy <a title="ed hardy" href="http://www.edhardyworld.co.uk" rel="nofollow"><strong>ed hardy</strong></a><br />
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christian audigier <a title="christian audigier" href="http://www.edhardyworld.co.uk" rel="nofollow"><strong>christian audigier</strong></a><br />
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ed hardy mens <a title="ed hardy mens" href="http://www.edhardyworld.co.uk/mens.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>ed hardy mens</strong></a><br />
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		<title>By: longyan</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-28724</link>
		<dc:creator>longyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-28724</guid>
		<description>It is no use doing  what &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-bailey-button-c-20.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ugg bailey button&lt;/a&gt; you like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uggshow.co.uk/specials.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ugg boots &lt;/a&gt;; you have got to like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-classic-cardy-c-2.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ugg classic cardy&lt;/a&gt; what you do &#160;My philosophy of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-lo-pro-button-c-21.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ugg lo pro button&lt;/a&gt; life is  work . When work is a pleasure , life is joy ! When work is duty ,&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-knightsbridge-c-27.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ugg knightsbridge&lt;/a&gt; life is  slavery .Work banishes those three great evils : boredom , vice, and  poverty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is no use doing  what <a href="http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-bailey-button-c-20.html" rel="nofollow">ugg bailey button</a> you like <a href="http://www.uggshow.co.uk/specials.html" rel="nofollow">ugg boots </a>; you have got to like <a href="http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-classic-cardy-c-2.html" rel="nofollow">ugg classic cardy</a> what you do &nbsp;My philosophy of <a href="http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-lo-pro-button-c-21.html" rel="nofollow">ugg lo pro button</a> life is  work . When work is a pleasure , life is joy ! When work is duty ,<a href="http://www.uggshow.co.uk/ugg-knightsbridge-c-27.html" rel="nofollow">ugg knightsbridge</a> life is  slavery .Work banishes those three great evils : boredom , vice, and  poverty.</p>
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		<title>By: Jinxsi</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-28148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jinxsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-28148</guid>
		<description>This is all very sad.  i spoke to a chiro about this, she said most chiro&#039;s spend 4-5 years doing one of the most difficult degree there is and then spend their life trying to help people.  But some dont, she also said that regular chiro&#039;s tend not to consider the McT chiro&#039;s as &quot;real chiro&#039;s&quot;.  She also pointed out the evidence base for routine medicine was hardly good science - as we all know.  Seeing bloggers bringing indescriminate mass super complaints - in revenge, isn&#039;t good.  Personally, IMHO, having been through a health based teaching hospital for 5 years (not chiro) and working in the health sector for 25 years I have come to be skeptic of mainstream medicine - which lead me to this excellent publication (can I recommend NHS plc by Allyson Pollock as a companion book) and more supportive of chiropractic work which I see as more scientific AND without big pharma influence......I suppose I must be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all very sad.  i spoke to a chiro about this, she said most chiro&#8217;s spend 4-5 years doing one of the most difficult degree there is and then spend their life trying to help people.  But some dont, she also said that regular chiro&#8217;s tend not to consider the McT chiro&#8217;s as &#8220;real chiro&#8217;s&#8221;.  She also pointed out the evidence base for routine medicine was hardly good science &#8211; as we all know.  Seeing bloggers bringing indescriminate mass super complaints &#8211; in revenge, isn&#8217;t good.  Personally, IMHO, having been through a health based teaching hospital for 5 years (not chiro) and working in the health sector for 25 years I have come to be skeptic of mainstream medicine &#8211; which lead me to this excellent publication (can I recommend NHS plc by Allyson Pollock as a companion book) and more supportive of chiropractic work which I see as more scientific AND without big pharma influence&#8230;&#8230;I suppose I must be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: jumma</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27715</link>
		<dc:creator>jumma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27715</guid>
		<description>@henry &quot;surely ‘the ragged band of bloggers’ are *part of* the media now? rather than seeing this as ‘blogs vs the media’ we just just accept that blogging is mainstream and stop throwing rocks at each other from entrenched and polarised positions? might be more productive…&quot;

I wonder which site Ben himself is on - is he a blogger, or does he write for the Guardian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@henry &#8220;surely ‘the ragged band of bloggers’ are *part of* the media now? rather than seeing this as ‘blogs vs the media’ we just just accept that blogging is mainstream and stop throwing rocks at each other from entrenched and polarised positions? might be more productive…&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder which site Ben himself is on &#8211; is he a blogger, or does he write for the Guardian?</p>
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		<title>By: Dattache</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27661</link>
		<dc:creator>Dattache</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27661</guid>
		<description>I would like to support DrB (No. 15 above) and to wave a small flag in defence of osteopaths.  I have visited a variety of osteopaths in several different countries over the last 20 years.  None of them have ever claimed to be able to do anything more than &quot;click&quot; my back, massage tight muscles and leave me moving more freely and feeling more comfortable.  They have all been able to do these things more or less satisfactorily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to support DrB (No. 15 above) and to wave a small flag in defence of osteopaths.  I have visited a variety of osteopaths in several different countries over the last 20 years.  None of them have ever claimed to be able to do anything more than &#8220;click&#8221; my back, massage tight muscles and leave me moving more freely and feeling more comfortable.  They have all been able to do these things more or less satisfactorily.</p>
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		<title>By: inanma</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27615</link>
		<dc:creator>inanma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27615</guid>
		<description>Scientific illiteracy must become a shameful ignorance. Nothing will be solved without this cultural change.

http://kulah.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scientific illiteracy must become a shameful ignorance. Nothing will be solved without this cultural change.</p>
<p><a href="http://kulah.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">kulah.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Strikesure</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27589</link>
		<dc:creator>Strikesure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27589</guid>
		<description>I was guided to this interesting blog by my Google analytics tool.  It showed people had been directed to my clinic&#039;s web site from this blog and the comment by JoanCrawford (number 21) seems to be the signpost.  

I suspect Joan only scanned the web page that she/he refers to in ther cmment.  The page covers the problems we treat in the clinic and not just chiropractic problems (these tend to be the ones listed before the &quot;and&quot; that Joan mentioned).  I would not suggest that I could treat chronic blushing but the clinic&#039;s Clinical Hypnotherapist does, and succesfully.  

I have now ammended the web page to prevent this misunderstanding happening again.

Finally, I would suggest that if you go to your GP he/she would talk about treating your condition rather than curing you condition.  So, this is not some sleight of hand that you un-charitably attributed to me but a reasonable use of english, n&#039;est-ce pas?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was guided to this interesting blog by my Google analytics tool.  It showed people had been directed to my clinic&#8217;s web site from this blog and the comment by JoanCrawford (number 21) seems to be the signpost.  </p>
<p>I suspect Joan only scanned the web page that she/he refers to in ther cmment.  The page covers the problems we treat in the clinic and not just chiropractic problems (these tend to be the ones listed before the &#8220;and&#8221; that Joan mentioned).  I would not suggest that I could treat chronic blushing but the clinic&#8217;s Clinical Hypnotherapist does, and succesfully.  </p>
<p>I have now ammended the web page to prevent this misunderstanding happening again.</p>
<p>Finally, I would suggest that if you go to your GP he/she would talk about treating your condition rather than curing you condition.  So, this is not some sleight of hand that you un-charitably attributed to me but a reasonable use of english, n&#8217;est-ce pas?</p>
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		<title>By: JonnyD</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27473</link>
		<dc:creator>JonnyD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27473</guid>
		<description>Can I say HDogg&#039;s reply (no 16, above) is one of the most ridiculously blinkered I&#039;ve ever seen; it could be used to dismiss the efficacy of any medical intervention anywhere, ever.
Surely the whole premise of the Bad Science Thing is to ask for evidence for claims made but issue knee-jerk rebuttals?
To dismiss the real life experience of SophieDB without knowing anything about the case is utterly unfair and unhelpful.
There seems to be no disagreement on this forum over claims that Chiropractors can solve everything from colic to third world debt are nonsense. That doesn&#039;t justify the notion in a number of the contributions that the whole field of practice can be dismissed without further consideration of the actual question of whether it works.
I am a natural cynic when it comes to claims of CAM merchants but a few years ago I hobbled into a chiropractor&#039;s house like a 90 year old and skipped out 40 minutes later like I&#039;d never had a problem. If I&#039;d got such a result from a faith healer I would have converted and joined a monastery there and then. It works - believe me, of that there is no doubt.
Surely a better suggestion would be that a proper study be carried out asking the questions such as:
1. How often does it work and on which conditions does it work?
2. If mistakes are made what are the dangers?
3. Does it work on everyone?
4. Are there dangers of using it on children?

We should also compare it against physios, osteopaths and inaction. Normally a drug wouldn&#039;t be tested against a placebo because doing nothing is not the real world alternative - but in the case of back/neck/pelvis pain you get next to nothing useful from a GP except &quot;take some painkillers and if it still hurts in a year or two we&#039;ll think about sending you to a physio, if we haven&#039;t all died of old age by then&quot;
Chiropractic works - it really does. Don&#039;t dismiss it out of &#039;them and us&#039; obstinacy and ask some proper questions about it.
(sorry for being so long)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I say HDogg&#8217;s reply (no 16, above) is one of the most ridiculously blinkered I&#8217;ve ever seen; it could be used to dismiss the efficacy of any medical intervention anywhere, ever.<br />
Surely the whole premise of the Bad Science Thing is to ask for evidence for claims made but issue knee-jerk rebuttals?<br />
To dismiss the real life experience of SophieDB without knowing anything about the case is utterly unfair and unhelpful.<br />
There seems to be no disagreement on this forum over claims that Chiropractors can solve everything from colic to third world debt are nonsense. That doesn&#8217;t justify the notion in a number of the contributions that the whole field of practice can be dismissed without further consideration of the actual question of whether it works.<br />
I am a natural cynic when it comes to claims of CAM merchants but a few years ago I hobbled into a chiropractor&#8217;s house like a 90 year old and skipped out 40 minutes later like I&#8217;d never had a problem. If I&#8217;d got such a result from a faith healer I would have converted and joined a monastery there and then. It works &#8211; believe me, of that there is no doubt.<br />
Surely a better suggestion would be that a proper study be carried out asking the questions such as:<br />
1. How often does it work and on which conditions does it work?<br />
2. If mistakes are made what are the dangers?<br />
3. Does it work on everyone?<br />
4. Are there dangers of using it on children?</p>
<p>We should also compare it against physios, osteopaths and inaction. Normally a drug wouldn&#8217;t be tested against a placebo because doing nothing is not the real world alternative &#8211; but in the case of back/neck/pelvis pain you get next to nothing useful from a GP except &#8220;take some painkillers and if it still hurts in a year or two we&#8217;ll think about sending you to a physio, if we haven&#8217;t all died of old age by then&#8221;<br />
Chiropractic works &#8211; it really does. Don&#8217;t dismiss it out of &#8216;them and us&#8217; obstinacy and ask some proper questions about it.<br />
(sorry for being so long)</p>
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		<title>By: seantheblogonaut</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27416</link>
		<dc:creator>seantheblogonaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27416</guid>
		<description>@henry,

I like &quot;ragged band of bloggers&quot; has me visualising them going over the top - we few, we ragged band of bloggers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@henry,</p>
<p>I like &#8220;ragged band of bloggers&#8221; has me visualising them going over the top &#8211; we few, we ragged band of bloggers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Ashy</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27398</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Ashy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 02:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27398</guid>
		<description>In terms of the judge&#039;s decision about the meaning of the word bogus, I&#039;m not sure how easy an appeal would be.  I can think of at least three relevant factors.
1) What Singh said he meant in the article - this would seem to be the most important
2) How the word is commonly used or understood. This would be a little trickier, but in the world of the internet it isn&#039;t too hard to see how the word is used in the context of the Guardian
3) The dictionary definition
1 and 3 certainly support singh, 2 I am not so sure about</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of the judge&#8217;s decision about the meaning of the word bogus, I&#8217;m not sure how easy an appeal would be.  I can think of at least three relevant factors.<br />
1) What Singh said he meant in the article &#8211; this would seem to be the most important<br />
2) How the word is commonly used or understood. This would be a little trickier, but in the world of the internet it isn&#8217;t too hard to see how the word is used in the context of the Guardian<br />
3) The dictionary definition<br />
1 and 3 certainly support singh, 2 I am not so sure about</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27384</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27384</guid>
		<description>&quot;a ragged band of bloggers from all walks of life has, to my mind, done a better job of subjecting an entire industry’s claims to meaningful, public, scientific scrutiny than the media&quot;

surely &#039;the ragged band of bloggers&#039; are *part of* the media now? rather than seeing this as &#039;blogs vs the media&#039; we just just accept that blogging is mainstream and stop throwing rocks at each other from entrenched and polarised positions? might be more productive...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a ragged band of bloggers from all walks of life has, to my mind, done a better job of subjecting an entire industry’s claims to meaningful, public, scientific scrutiny than the media&#8221;</p>
<p>surely &#8216;the ragged band of bloggers&#8217; are *part of* the media now? rather than seeing this as &#8216;blogs vs the media&#8217; we just just accept that blogging is mainstream and stop throwing rocks at each other from entrenched and polarised positions? might be more productive&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Methuselah</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27365</link>
		<dc:creator>Methuselah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 00:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27365</guid>
		<description>Right - this is the thread I thought I was posting on: looks like I was caught out by the 1.45 am website update.

As I was saying, this whole thing could have been avoided the chiropracters had understood the Streisand Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right &#8211; this is the thread I thought I was posting on: looks like I was caught out by the 1.45 am website update.</p>
<p>As I was saying, this whole thing could have been avoided the chiropracters had understood the Streisand Effect.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect" rel="nofollow">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect</a></p>
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		<title>By: aussieboy</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27361</link>
		<dc:creator>aussieboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 00:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27361</guid>
		<description>I went to a chiropracter on the recommendation my wife a long time ago (forgive me - I was young and naive). He did horrendous things to my neck without warning which hurt (a lot) and made it worse.

That makes the anecdote score 15 all, I believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to a chiropracter on the recommendation my wife a long time ago (forgive me &#8211; I was young and naive). He did horrendous things to my neck without warning which hurt (a lot) and made it worse.</p>
<p>That makes the anecdote score 15 all, I believe.</p>
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		<title>By: JoanCrawford</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27355</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanCrawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27355</guid>
		<description>This lot [url]http://www.c1healthcentre.co.uk/conditions_we_treat.asp[/url] made I larf (sort of).

Check out the list of things that chiropractic will treat, after the &#039;and&#039; break.

Chronic blushing? Poor sales performance? And more.

The chiropractors do seem to be quite cute about using the word treat, rather than cure, however.

Which might keep them away from trading standards, but does render anything they say somewhat meaningless.

I.e. if the treatment doesn&#039;t work, well, it was only sold as a treatment, not a cure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This lot [url]http://www.c1healthcentre.co.uk/conditions_we_treat.asp[/url] made I larf (sort of).</p>
<p>Check out the list of things that chiropractic will treat, after the &#8216;and&#8217; break.</p>
<p>Chronic blushing? Poor sales performance? And more.</p>
<p>The chiropractors do seem to be quite cute about using the word treat, rather than cure, however.</p>
<p>Which might keep them away from trading standards, but does render anything they say somewhat meaningless.</p>
<p>I.e. if the treatment doesn&#8217;t work, well, it was only sold as a treatment, not a cure.</p>
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		<title>By: SitP Leicester</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27352</link>
		<dc:creator>SitP Leicester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27352</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m the chap who wrote the letters as mentioned in Ben&#039;s article.  I&#039;ve got another one that&#039;s about to go out and I&#039;m hoping to get a large number of signatories this time.  Please sign it if you agree with it.

http://adventuresinnonsense.blogspot.com/2009/07/please-sign-letter-to-trading-standards.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m the chap who wrote the letters as mentioned in Ben&#8217;s article.  I&#8217;ve got another one that&#8217;s about to go out and I&#8217;m hoping to get a large number of signatories this time.  Please sign it if you agree with it.</p>
<p><a href="http://adventuresinnonsense.blogspot.com/2009/07/please-sign-letter-to-trading-standards.html" rel="nofollow">adventuresinnonsense.blogspot.com/2009/07/please-sign-letter-to-trading-standards.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Delster</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27351</link>
		<dc:creator>Delster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27351</guid>
		<description>@Mungus - I had occasion to see an osteopath (referred by Doc) following spending a couple of months in bed (enforced by bike accident). No massage was given but bones were re-alligned (cracked unnervingly) and it certainly helped. At no point did the osteo spin any mumbo jumbo, she just said that the impact and enforced reclining position had caused a few joints to stiffen and other bones to be very slightly out of place.

Re Ben&#039;s article 
&quot;The MCA says this is a “vexatious campaign against the profession”, that it has nothing to hide&quot; 
Except maybe &quot;the blue MCA patient information leaflets, or any patient information leaflets of your own that state you treat whiplash, colic or other childhood problems in your clinic …&quot;

And when did Whiplash become a childhood problem??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mungus &#8211; I had occasion to see an osteopath (referred by Doc) following spending a couple of months in bed (enforced by bike accident). No massage was given but bones were re-alligned (cracked unnervingly) and it certainly helped. At no point did the osteo spin any mumbo jumbo, she just said that the impact and enforced reclining position had caused a few joints to stiffen and other bones to be very slightly out of place.</p>
<p>Re Ben&#8217;s article<br />
&#8220;The MCA says this is a “vexatious campaign against the profession”, that it has nothing to hide&#8221;<br />
Except maybe &#8220;the blue MCA patient information leaflets, or any patient information leaflets of your own that state you treat whiplash, colic or other childhood problems in your clinic …&#8221;</p>
<p>And when did Whiplash become a childhood problem??</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27349</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27349</guid>
		<description>I would suggest that the word bogus means false, fake, or more specifically, not based on evidence, as seems to be the context here. Criticising the BCA for &quot;happily promoting bogus treatments&quot; is like criticising a religious organisation for happily promoting bogus ideas. Just because you believe in or advocate something stupid does not mean that you are being intentionally dishonest or deceptive. You might just be really thick. I have no doubt that (at least most) chiropractors are practising their bogus treatments with complete and genuine confidence that they work, and I don&#039;t see any proof that Singh suggested otherwise.

There is a line here I think, that you do not cross under any circumstances, which is making unflattering and unfounded claims about the *beliefs* of a person or organisation. Confidently stating that the BCA accepts that the treatments are bogus but allows them to be used anyway requires evidence. But if you provide a diversity of peer-reviewed studies that tends to favour the premise that the treatments don&#039;t work, stating that if the BCA wants chiropractic to be taken seriously as an evidence-based discipline they should weed out this sort of riff-raff should be completely acceptable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would suggest that the word bogus means false, fake, or more specifically, not based on evidence, as seems to be the context here. Criticising the BCA for &#8220;happily promoting bogus treatments&#8221; is like criticising a religious organisation for happily promoting bogus ideas. Just because you believe in or advocate something stupid does not mean that you are being intentionally dishonest or deceptive. You might just be really thick. I have no doubt that (at least most) chiropractors are practising their bogus treatments with complete and genuine confidence that they work, and I don&#8217;t see any proof that Singh suggested otherwise.</p>
<p>There is a line here I think, that you do not cross under any circumstances, which is making unflattering and unfounded claims about the *beliefs* of a person or organisation. Confidently stating that the BCA accepts that the treatments are bogus but allows them to be used anyway requires evidence. But if you provide a diversity of peer-reviewed studies that tends to favour the premise that the treatments don&#8217;t work, stating that if the BCA wants chiropractic to be taken seriously as an evidence-based discipline they should weed out this sort of riff-raff should be completely acceptable.</p>
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		<title>By: Goblok</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-27348</link>
		<dc:creator>Goblok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/?p=1272#comment-27348</guid>
		<description>@simondsr - I lurved that article! Hilarious. We have lost a lot to the politically correct and human rights brigade that now forbids such use of language.
Whilst I do not agree with ALL he says, Ben et al might want to consider the argument that natural selection (and therefore the successful development of mankind) rests on allowing nature to weed out the weak.
It is a moral dilemma, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@simondsr &#8211; I lurved that article! Hilarious. We have lost a lot to the politically correct and human rights brigade that now forbids such use of language.<br />
Whilst I do not agree with ALL he says, Ben et al might want to consider the argument that natural selection (and therefore the successful development of mankind) rests on allowing nature to weed out the weak.<br />
It is a moral dilemma, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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