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	<title>Comments on: Will a hung parliament undermine fiscal discipline? Here&#8217;s some data.</title>
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	<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/</link>
	<description>Ben Goldacre&#039;s Bad Science column from the Guardian and more...</description>
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		<title>By: Jon d</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32800</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 12:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32800</guid>
		<description>yeah a straight line correlation seems like a naieve expectation, I did read something about voting power analysis (of the sort done in the papers leppo mentioned)in the new scientist around 1986-1988 and iirc it works like a series of tipping points where small changes in the proportions of seats can result in large changes in the relative voting power of the players. 50%-100% seats for one party in parliament where a simple majority is sufficient means you don&#039;t need to talk to anybody else to push your programme, if you&#039;ve got ferinstance 2 parties on 40% seats each and one party on 20% seats the party on 20% is really quite powerful. 

if anyone wants to play around with Banzhaf voting power analysis there&#039;s a page on wiki, a download for wolfram (requires mathematica playa) http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/BanzhafPowerIndex/
and an excel macro - http://home.comcast.net/~raagnew/site/?/page/Downloads

Both are pretty horrible to use tbh - but I managed to get the excel working for the current UK parliament after rolling up my sleeves &amp; increasing the size of a couple of arrays... anyone fancy writing a decent banzhaf programme for R? it&#039;d be fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah a straight line correlation seems like a naieve expectation, I did read something about voting power analysis (of the sort done in the papers leppo mentioned)in the new scientist around 1986-1988 and iirc it works like a series of tipping points where small changes in the proportions of seats can result in large changes in the relative voting power of the players. 50%-100% seats for one party in parliament where a simple majority is sufficient means you don&#8217;t need to talk to anybody else to push your programme, if you&#8217;ve got ferinstance 2 parties on 40% seats each and one party on 20% seats the party on 20% is really quite powerful. </p>
<p>if anyone wants to play around with Banzhaf voting power analysis there&#8217;s a page on wiki, a download for wolfram (requires mathematica playa) <a href="http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/BanzhafPowerIndex/" rel="nofollow">demonstrations.wolfram.com/BanzhafPowerIndex/</a><br />
and an excel macro &#8211; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~raagnew/site/?/page/Downloads" rel="nofollow">home.comcast.net/~raagnew/site/?/page/Downloads</a></p>
<p>Both are pretty horrible to use tbh &#8211; but I managed to get the excel working for the current UK parliament after rolling up my sleeves &amp; increasing the size of a couple of arrays&#8230; anyone fancy writing a decent banzhaf programme for R? it&#8217;d be fun.</p>
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		<title>By: susu.exp</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32788</link>
		<dc:creator>susu.exp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 19:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32788</guid>
		<description>I crunched a few numbers using data from the German Länderfinanzausgleich from 1952 to 2008 (1995-2008 for the 5 formerly eastern german Länder). In the federal system the Bundesländer running a surplus cover some of the debt of the less disciplined (or merely troubled) Lander. So I´ve looked at the various coalition governments running them and these are mean values of what Länder goverened by coalitions have recieved (negative numbers indicate that they´ve given away funds, number in brackets indicate the number of years these coalitions were in power):
SPD-greens: -446 (39)
CDU/CSU-FDP: -333 (88)
CDU/CSU: -105 (198)
SPD-FDP: -19 (78)
SPD: 76 (133)
SPD-FDP-greens: 291 (1)
CDU-SPD:505 (74)
SPD-PDS/Die Linke: 1323 (16)

Non-coalition governments are in the middle, while both the top recipients and top disciplinarians are coalition governments. This does broadly support the idea that coalitions between roughly equal strenght partners are less fiscally responsible (both the grand coalition of CDU and SPD and the SPD-PDS/Die Linke line up fill that slot), but coalitions with one strong and one weak partner (SPD-greens, CDU-FDP, SPD-FDP) do rather well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I crunched a few numbers using data from the German Länderfinanzausgleich from 1952 to 2008 (1995-2008 for the 5 formerly eastern german Länder). In the federal system the Bundesländer running a surplus cover some of the debt of the less disciplined (or merely troubled) Lander. So I´ve looked at the various coalition governments running them and these are mean values of what Länder goverened by coalitions have recieved (negative numbers indicate that they´ve given away funds, number in brackets indicate the number of years these coalitions were in power):<br />
SPD-greens: -446 (39)<br />
CDU/CSU-FDP: -333 (88)<br />
CDU/CSU: -105 (198)<br />
SPD-FDP: -19 (78)<br />
SPD: 76 (133)<br />
SPD-FDP-greens: 291 (1)<br />
CDU-SPD:505 (74)<br />
SPD-PDS/Die Linke: 1323 (16)</p>
<p>Non-coalition governments are in the middle, while both the top recipients and top disciplinarians are coalition governments. This does broadly support the idea that coalitions between roughly equal strenght partners are less fiscally responsible (both the grand coalition of CDU and SPD and the SPD-PDS/Die Linke line up fill that slot), but coalitions with one strong and one weak partner (SPD-greens, CDU-FDP, SPD-FDP) do rather well.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveGJ</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32787</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveGJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 19:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32787</guid>
		<description>@Leppo

An extremely good idea to look at the research on this and, on a quick scan on the items listed, it would appear the evidence is contradictory and no doubt has kept many social scientists happily working away with their toolbox of statistical tools for many a long year.

In any event, the thought that a simple little scatter chart, like the one used to illustrate this item, is actually at all likely to shed some blinding shaft of light onto such a complex problem is, to say the least, dubious when so many have struggled on this before.

Just because it is possible to phrase a simple question does not mean that there is an equally simple answer, although politicians often seek to make it appear that way. 

Personally, I suspect any effect of whether majority or coalition governments are more likely to maintain good public finances is probably going to get swamped by a multitude of other factors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Leppo</p>
<p>An extremely good idea to look at the research on this and, on a quick scan on the items listed, it would appear the evidence is contradictory and no doubt has kept many social scientists happily working away with their toolbox of statistical tools for many a long year.</p>
<p>In any event, the thought that a simple little scatter chart, like the one used to illustrate this item, is actually at all likely to shed some blinding shaft of light onto such a complex problem is, to say the least, dubious when so many have struggled on this before.</p>
<p>Just because it is possible to phrase a simple question does not mean that there is an equally simple answer, although politicians often seek to make it appear that way. </p>
<p>Personally, I suspect any effect of whether majority or coalition governments are more likely to maintain good public finances is probably going to get swamped by a multitude of other factors.</p>
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		<title>By: Leppo</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32786</link>
		<dc:creator>Leppo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 08:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32786</guid>
		<description>Usually when I see an interesting phenomenon, I look up for the previous knowledge about the issue, instead of a lot of guesswork. In this case, there are numerous academic studies on the subject. Why not consult the previous literature instead of considering simple cross-section correlation? 

As some observers have pointed out, the association illustrated by the scatter plot may well be a dynamic in nature.

Just a few references, but you get them free:

The Weak Government Thesis: Some New Evidence 
Public Choice, Volume 101, Numbers 3-4 / December, 1999

Jakob de Haan, Jan-Egbert Sturm and Geert Beekhuis

Abstract  This paper presents new evidence on the hypothesis that coalition governments will find it more difficult to keep their budgets in line after an adverse economic shock than do one-party, majoritarian governments. The estimates are based on a broad sample of OECD countries, for the period 1979–1995. Using various specifications as suggested in the literature, we do not find evidence that the type of government affects cross country variation in fiscal policy. However, the number of political parties in government affects central government debt growth.


Government Strength, Power Dispersion in Governments and Budget Deficits in OECD-Countries. A Voting Power Approach 

Public Choice, Volume 116, Numbers 3-4 / September, 2003

Gerald Huber, Martin Kocher and Matthias Sutter

Abstract  We test for the influence of government strength and dispersion of power among the parties of coalition governments on the size of annual debt accumulation through budget deficits in OECD-countries from 1970 to 1999. Government strength and power dispersion in coalition governments are measured by the Banzhaf index of voting power, respectively the standard deviation of Banzhaf indices of coalition parties. We believe that these are better-suited proxies than most of what has been applied so far. Government strength turns out to be insignificant. However, coalitions with equally strong partners run significantly higher deficits than coalitions with one dominating party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Usually when I see an interesting phenomenon, I look up for the previous knowledge about the issue, instead of a lot of guesswork. In this case, there are numerous academic studies on the subject. Why not consult the previous literature instead of considering simple cross-section correlation? </p>
<p>As some observers have pointed out, the association illustrated by the scatter plot may well be a dynamic in nature.</p>
<p>Just a few references, but you get them free:</p>
<p>The Weak Government Thesis: Some New Evidence<br />
Public Choice, Volume 101, Numbers 3-4 / December, 1999</p>
<p>Jakob de Haan, Jan-Egbert Sturm and Geert Beekhuis</p>
<p>Abstract  This paper presents new evidence on the hypothesis that coalition governments will find it more difficult to keep their budgets in line after an adverse economic shock than do one-party, majoritarian governments. The estimates are based on a broad sample of OECD countries, for the period 1979–1995. Using various specifications as suggested in the literature, we do not find evidence that the type of government affects cross country variation in fiscal policy. However, the number of political parties in government affects central government debt growth.</p>
<p>Government Strength, Power Dispersion in Governments and Budget Deficits in OECD-Countries. A Voting Power Approach </p>
<p>Public Choice, Volume 116, Numbers 3-4 / September, 2003</p>
<p>Gerald Huber, Martin Kocher and Matthias Sutter</p>
<p>Abstract  We test for the influence of government strength and dispersion of power among the parties of coalition governments on the size of annual debt accumulation through budget deficits in OECD-countries from 1970 to 1999. Government strength and power dispersion in coalition governments are measured by the Banzhaf index of voting power, respectively the standard deviation of Banzhaf indices of coalition parties. We believe that these are better-suited proxies than most of what has been applied so far. Government strength turns out to be insignificant. However, coalitions with equally strong partners run significantly higher deficits than coalitions with one dominating party.</p>
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		<title>By: kingshiner</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32774</link>
		<dc:creator>kingshiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 09:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32774</guid>
		<description>The p-value of 0.01 just says it&#039;s unlikely there is zero association, but it&#039;s extremely weak, never mind whether it&#039;s causal, due to outliers etc. 

P-values for correlation coefficients give very small p value from totally uninteresting data, usually they&#039;re a mistake. The &#039;limits of agreement method&#039; (Bland/Altman) is more informative, it&#039;d tell you how far off you could be in predicting debt from size of largest party (hopelessly far off).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The p-value of 0.01 just says it&#8217;s unlikely there is zero association, but it&#8217;s extremely weak, never mind whether it&#8217;s causal, due to outliers etc. </p>
<p>P-values for correlation coefficients give very small p value from totally uninteresting data, usually they&#8217;re a mistake. The &#8216;limits of agreement method&#8217; (Bland/Altman) is more informative, it&#8217;d tell you how far off you could be in predicting debt from size of largest party (hopelessly far off).</p>
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		<title>By: shockdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32772</link>
		<dc:creator>shockdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 23:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32772</guid>
		<description>well.. 

&gt; (hp)
          Country    Party       Debt
1         Belgium 19.96310 -4.2559524
2         Finland 25.49815 -1.8750000
3         Denmark 25.49815 -1.6964286
4     Netherlands 27.26937 -5.2083333
5         Austria 31.03321 -4.3154762
6        Slovenia 32.14022 -4.4047619
7        Slovakia 33.24723 -4.7023810
8          Sweden 37.23247 -0.8333333
9          Norway 37.78598 -7.3511905
10        Germany 39.88930 -3.7797619
11       Portugal 42.10332 -7.0535714
12          Italy 43.76384 -3.4821429
13        Ireland 46.30996 -7.8869048
14         Canada 46.42066 -3.0059524
15          Spain 48.30258 -7.3214286
16    New Zealand 48.30258 -2.0535714
17         Greece 53.28413 -8.8988095
18         France 54.16974 -4.6130952
19 United Kingdom 54.94465 -7.5595238
20      Australia 55.27675 -4.9107143
21            USA 59.04059 -9.2261905
22          Japan 64.13284 -7.5000000
&gt; cor(Party, Debt, method=&quot;pearson&quot;)
[1] -0.5506873
&gt; shapiro.test(Party)

	Shapiro-Wilk normality test

data:  Party 
W = 0.9744, p-value = 0.81

&gt; shapiro.test(Debt)

	Shapiro-Wilk normality test

data:  Debt 
W = 0.9514, p-value = 0.3372

So, greater than 0.2 then but.... all of the above caveats make this fairly redundant. Just in case anyone was still interested. Yes the r^2 is ok but let&#039;s face it the data isn&#039;t really able to cause inter-ocular trauma (it doesn&#039;t hit you between the eyes). 


Also, I love &quot;R&quot;. If you&#039;re not using &quot;R&quot;. If you&#039;re using something wet like SAS or Stata or worse... ew .... SPSS, then download &quot;R&quot; and play with it.... real men (and real women) (and possibly some real men that think they&#039;re real women) (and vice versa) Use R!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well.. </p>
<p>&gt; (hp)<br />
          Country    Party       Debt<br />
1         Belgium 19.96310 -4.2559524<br />
2         Finland 25.49815 -1.8750000<br />
3         Denmark 25.49815 -1.6964286<br />
4     Netherlands 27.26937 -5.2083333<br />
5         Austria 31.03321 -4.3154762<br />
6        Slovenia 32.14022 -4.4047619<br />
7        Slovakia 33.24723 -4.7023810<br />
8          Sweden 37.23247 -0.8333333<br />
9          Norway 37.78598 -7.3511905<br />
10        Germany 39.88930 -3.7797619<br />
11       Portugal 42.10332 -7.0535714<br />
12          Italy 43.76384 -3.4821429<br />
13        Ireland 46.30996 -7.8869048<br />
14         Canada 46.42066 -3.0059524<br />
15          Spain 48.30258 -7.3214286<br />
16    New Zealand 48.30258 -2.0535714<br />
17         Greece 53.28413 -8.8988095<br />
18         France 54.16974 -4.6130952<br />
19 United Kingdom 54.94465 -7.5595238<br />
20      Australia 55.27675 -4.9107143<br />
21            USA 59.04059 -9.2261905<br />
22          Japan 64.13284 -7.5000000<br />
&gt; cor(Party, Debt, method=&#8221;pearson&#8221;)<br />
[1] -0.5506873<br />
&gt; shapiro.test(Party)</p>
<p>	Shapiro-Wilk normality test</p>
<p>data:  Party<br />
W = 0.9744, p-value = 0.81</p>
<p>&gt; shapiro.test(Debt)</p>
<p>	Shapiro-Wilk normality test</p>
<p>data:  Debt<br />
W = 0.9514, p-value = 0.3372</p>
<p>So, greater than 0.2 then but&#8230;. all of the above caveats make this fairly redundant. Just in case anyone was still interested. Yes the r^2 is ok but let&#8217;s face it the data isn&#8217;t really able to cause inter-ocular trauma (it doesn&#8217;t hit you between the eyes). </p>
<p>Also, I love &#8220;R&#8221;. If you&#8217;re not using &#8220;R&#8221;. If you&#8217;re using something wet like SAS or Stata or worse&#8230; ew &#8230;. SPSS, then download &#8220;R&#8221; and play with it&#8230;. real men (and real women) (and possibly some real men that think they&#8217;re real women) (and vice versa) Use R!</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32770</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 12:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32770</guid>
		<description>Dude I would love to see your geek&#039;s Pearson&#039;s correlation coefficient (I would be surprised if it reached 0.2). His outliers are insane! Oh and Spain &amp; Greece in there, that&#039;s a Joke right??
Oh and you&#039;re saying Mr. Cameron and his newly-found set of (i would love to put &#039;like-minded&#039; here) political allies might not spend as much as their predecessors. Doesn&#039;t contractionary fiscal policy promote economic recession? A little bit counter-intuitive if you consider UK&#039;s current economic conundrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude I would love to see your geek&#8217;s Pearson&#8217;s correlation coefficient (I would be surprised if it reached 0.2). His outliers are insane! Oh and Spain &amp; Greece in there, that&#8217;s a Joke right??<br />
Oh and you&#8217;re saying Mr. Cameron and his newly-found set of (i would love to put &#8216;like-minded&#8217; here) political allies might not spend as much as their predecessors. Doesn&#8217;t contractionary fiscal policy promote economic recession? A little bit counter-intuitive if you consider UK&#8217;s current economic conundrum.</p>
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		<title>By: rickogorman</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32767</link>
		<dc:creator>rickogorman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 09:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32767</guid>
		<description>@shockdoc: Firstly, whether the graph shows a &#039;modest&#039; predictor depends on your point of reference. Seems to me accounting for about one quarter of the variance i the data, given all the points above, is pretty good. Secondly, as others note, it certainly speaks to the ridiculous coverage I&#039;ve seen on the Beeb so far of a hung parliament/coalition. Not to mention the dumb &#039;but the Tories &quot;won&quot;, so shouldn&#039;t they be in government&#039;. As if it were the boat race.

Finally, perhaps the most prescient part of the Hung Parliament report that Ben posted:

&quot;But the greater risk is that when it happens, the media will denounce minority government as something fearful, unstable and deeply undesirable.&quot;

Sadly spot on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@shockdoc: Firstly, whether the graph shows a &#8216;modest&#8217; predictor depends on your point of reference. Seems to me accounting for about one quarter of the variance i the data, given all the points above, is pretty good. Secondly, as others note, it certainly speaks to the ridiculous coverage I&#8217;ve seen on the Beeb so far of a hung parliament/coalition. Not to mention the dumb &#8216;but the Tories &#8220;won&#8221;, so shouldn&#8217;t they be in government&#8217;. As if it were the boat race.</p>
<p>Finally, perhaps the most prescient part of the Hung Parliament report that Ben posted:</p>
<p>&#8220;But the greater risk is that when it happens, the media will denounce minority government as something fearful, unstable and deeply undesirable.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sadly spot on.</p>
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		<title>By: Filias Cupio</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32766</link>
		<dc:creator>Filias Cupio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 06:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32766</guid>
		<description>One could make a data-nerd quiz show out of stuff like this. Take pairs of variables (like this example), and ask your contestants which way the correlation will be and how strong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One could make a data-nerd quiz show out of stuff like this. Take pairs of variables (like this example), and ask your contestants which way the correlation will be and how strong.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon d</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32765</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 02:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32765</guid>
		<description>Well the source of the structural balance data seems to be the 2010 column of table B7 of the 2010 IMF report. First up it&#039;s forecast not measured. 
Also there&#039;s a forecast for 2011, it occurred to me that an alternate measure of financial discipline could be the proportion by which the structural balance is forecast to come down between 2010 and 2011 (or go up... NZ I&#039;m looking at you). If you do that the correlation comes out very weak.
And another thing, the odd looking selection of countries, the reason it includes countries like Slovenia is, afaict, cos it runs the Euro as a headline economy with all the Euro members as sub economies. Seems to me the Euro countries might not be entirely economically sovereign, i.e statistically independent, least not without looking deeper. Maybe we should include Poland, Brazil, South Korea and a few other places. 
Oh yeah and it&#039;s also not clear to me that less structural balance is better, I&#039;m not an economist but maybe there&#039;s a good level of structural balance that&#039;s not zero?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the source of the structural balance data seems to be the 2010 column of table B7 of the 2010 IMF report. First up it&#8217;s forecast not measured.<br />
Also there&#8217;s a forecast for 2011, it occurred to me that an alternate measure of financial discipline could be the proportion by which the structural balance is forecast to come down between 2010 and 2011 (or go up&#8230; NZ I&#8217;m looking at you). If you do that the correlation comes out very weak.<br />
And another thing, the odd looking selection of countries, the reason it includes countries like Slovenia is, afaict, cos it runs the Euro as a headline economy with all the Euro members as sub economies. Seems to me the Euro countries might not be entirely economically sovereign, i.e statistically independent, least not without looking deeper. Maybe we should include Poland, Brazil, South Korea and a few other places.<br />
Oh yeah and it&#8217;s also not clear to me that less structural balance is better, I&#8217;m not an economist but maybe there&#8217;s a good level of structural balance that&#8217;s not zero?</p>
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		<title>By: fontwell</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32758</link>
		<dc:creator>fontwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 13:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32758</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t really trying to make a point about the USA other than use it as an example of where the current government has a much bigger/smaller lead (in terms of the units on the graph) than the government responsible the debit. 

So the point was more about the financial situation in a single year vs the incumbent government&#039;s majority being a rather crude measure, which I guess we all new anyway. I mean, the UK is about to leap from right to left on the graph overnight with no change in what what kind of government caused our current condition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t really trying to make a point about the USA other than use it as an example of where the current government has a much bigger/smaller lead (in terms of the units on the graph) than the government responsible the debit. </p>
<p>So the point was more about the financial situation in a single year vs the incumbent government&#8217;s majority being a rather crude measure, which I guess we all new anyway. I mean, the UK is about to leap from right to left on the graph overnight with no change in what what kind of government caused our current condition.</p>
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		<title>By: Diversity</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32757</link>
		<dc:creator>Diversity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 11:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32757</guid>
		<description>These scattegraphs are important. They show that the there is no prima facie evidence that fiscal discipline and/or quality of governemnt are worse when and where there is no absolute majority in the legislature.

To put the same point another way; as a remedy for fiscal indiscipline one-party majorities are snake oil; and nothing more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These scattegraphs are important. They show that the there is no prima facie evidence that fiscal discipline and/or quality of governemnt are worse when and where there is no absolute majority in the legislature.</p>
<p>To put the same point another way; as a remedy for fiscal indiscipline one-party majorities are snake oil; and nothing more.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon d</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32745</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 16:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32745</guid>
		<description>Oh right, it&#039;s not from that pdf, it&#039;s from this powerpoint http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/images/files/understanding_hung_parliaments.ppt#8 - there&#039;s an even dodgier looking scattergraph on the page before correlating large majorities to bad government if anyone fancies having a pop at that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh right, it&#8217;s not from that pdf, it&#8217;s from this powerpoint <a href="http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/images/files/understanding_hung_parliaments.ppt#8" rel="nofollow">www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/images/files/understanding_hung_parliaments.ppt#8</a> &#8211; there&#8217;s an even dodgier looking scattergraph on the page before correlating large majorities to bad government if anyone fancies having a pop at that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon d</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32744</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 16:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32744</guid>
		<description>Which page of the IoG&#039;s pdf document does this scattergraph come from? cos I can&#039;t see it there.

Just wondered if there was any sort of method governing which countries were included really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which page of the IoG&#8217;s pdf document does this scattergraph come from? cos I can&#8217;t see it there.</p>
<p>Just wondered if there was any sort of method governing which countries were included really.</p>
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		<title>By: elvisionary</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32743</link>
		<dc:creator>elvisionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 13:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32743</guid>
		<description>@fontwell.  The point isn&#039;t about the size of the majority, it&#039;s really about the electoral system.  The x-axis is percentage of seats won, not percentage of votes.  In virtually all mature democracies, how far along the x-axis a country appears will depend on its electoral system: first-past-the-post and similar systems create a parliamentary majority out of a minority of the vote.

In this context, the US is probably an outlier anyway - it may have a first-past-the-post electoral system but its separation of powers (and the &quot;swing&quot; power that is often in the hands of a handful of congressmen and particularly senators) means that the government&#039;s ability to control expenditure is highly constrained anyway.  The US has a weird mix - traditionally low overall public expenditure allied to a system that is almost constitutionally incapable of reducing it without being held hostage by vested interests.

I agree with msjhaffey above that there are two different questions.  It may be that perpetual coalition is the best way to ensure sustainable public expenditure - in stark contrast to the ridiculous Tory-underspend Labour-splurge cycle we have to put up with in the UK.  But if you find yourself in a position where you have to confront vested interests in order to reduce expenditure, more coalition partners means more chance for the vested interests to get in the way.  With the possible - and somewhat undemocratic - exception that if you&#039;re in a coalition you can always blame your coalition partner!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@fontwell.  The point isn&#8217;t about the size of the majority, it&#8217;s really about the electoral system.  The x-axis is percentage of seats won, not percentage of votes.  In virtually all mature democracies, how far along the x-axis a country appears will depend on its electoral system: first-past-the-post and similar systems create a parliamentary majority out of a minority of the vote.</p>
<p>In this context, the US is probably an outlier anyway &#8211; it may have a first-past-the-post electoral system but its separation of powers (and the &#8220;swing&#8221; power that is often in the hands of a handful of congressmen and particularly senators) means that the government&#8217;s ability to control expenditure is highly constrained anyway.  The US has a weird mix &#8211; traditionally low overall public expenditure allied to a system that is almost constitutionally incapable of reducing it without being held hostage by vested interests.</p>
<p>I agree with msjhaffey above that there are two different questions.  It may be that perpetual coalition is the best way to ensure sustainable public expenditure &#8211; in stark contrast to the ridiculous Tory-underspend Labour-splurge cycle we have to put up with in the UK.  But if you find yourself in a position where you have to confront vested interests in order to reduce expenditure, more coalition partners means more chance for the vested interests to get in the way.  With the possible &#8211; and somewhat undemocratic &#8211; exception that if you&#8217;re in a coalition you can always blame your coalition partner!</p>
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		<title>By: daveneedstoknow</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32742</link>
		<dc:creator>daveneedstoknow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 13:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32742</guid>
		<description>Interesting - I used your spreadsheet, thanks Thomas and plugged in the income inequality figures from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality I ended up with this graph; http://sites.google.com/site/wellandhung/incomegap which suggests an equally strong correlation that countries with large majority governments also have the biggest gaps between the richest and poorest 10% of the population. Japan sticks out as an exception here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting &#8211; I used your spreadsheet, thanks Thomas and plugged in the income inequality figures from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality" rel="nofollow">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality</a> I ended up with this graph; <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/wellandhung/incomegap" rel="nofollow">sites.google.com/site/wellandhung/incomegap</a> which suggests an equally strong correlation that countries with large majority governments also have the biggest gaps between the richest and poorest 10% of the population. Japan sticks out as an exception here.</p>
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		<title>By: anon3455</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32741</link>
		<dc:creator>anon3455</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 09:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32741</guid>
		<description>This is such a stupid graph. As if essentially two-party system could be usefully compared to multiparty system like this.

Eg. Finnish system is essentially a three-party system. There are three major parties out of which two always form the government with some smaller parties. I would think it is more significant which parties form the government than the vote share of the largest party.
However, the spending versus _the_government_&#039;s share of votes could be interesting. Of course, using only one year&#039;s data contains so much noise (parties, economic situation) that any trend found can not be taken seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is such a stupid graph. As if essentially two-party system could be usefully compared to multiparty system like this.</p>
<p>Eg. Finnish system is essentially a three-party system. There are three major parties out of which two always form the government with some smaller parties. I would think it is more significant which parties form the government than the vote share of the largest party.<br />
However, the spending versus _the_government_&#8217;s share of votes could be interesting. Of course, using only one year&#8217;s data contains so much noise (parties, economic situation) that any trend found can not be taken seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Amsterdamtomsk</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32729</link>
		<dc:creator>Amsterdamtomsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 06:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32729</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a political nerd but I do think about economic data as part of my job.

I was sent this chart as an &quot;aha&quot; moment by a facebook friend so I thought I&#039;d stop by.

Some thoughts:

Firstly, don&#039;t worry about the differing electoral systems - let us not forget that Belgium was without a functional political leadership for several months. 

Secondly don&#039;t worry about applying &quot;seats won at last election&quot; as the measure of stability in these radically differing systems - Australia vs France for example. 

Thirdly, don&#039;t worry about not correcting for currency fluctuations (is this in local currency or USD) or taking any sort of longer term look at the surplus data.  Fourthly don&#039;t worry about the relative size of the economies in question.

Lastly, don&#039;t worry that the graph doesn&#039;t begin to get close to proving that a coalition is better at controlling government spending than a single party over time (no correction for stable near single party coalitions and unstable coalitions, and no attempt to suggest a cause just a correlation.)

Also, just to throw my cat firmly among the pigeons, anyone want to guess at the countries globally with the largest surplus. Do we think China, Saudi Arabia, and some other size of largest party = 100% of seats won upset the correlation?

So - what we should all be worried about is that not one of these democracies can run a surplus, not one.  Arguing that coalitions are the least worst way of breaking the economy isn&#039;t particularly useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a political nerd but I do think about economic data as part of my job.</p>
<p>I was sent this chart as an &#8220;aha&#8221; moment by a facebook friend so I thought I&#8217;d stop by.</p>
<p>Some thoughts:</p>
<p>Firstly, don&#8217;t worry about the differing electoral systems &#8211; let us not forget that Belgium was without a functional political leadership for several months. </p>
<p>Secondly don&#8217;t worry about applying &#8220;seats won at last election&#8221; as the measure of stability in these radically differing systems &#8211; Australia vs France for example. </p>
<p>Thirdly, don&#8217;t worry about not correcting for currency fluctuations (is this in local currency or USD) or taking any sort of longer term look at the surplus data.  Fourthly don&#8217;t worry about the relative size of the economies in question.</p>
<p>Lastly, don&#8217;t worry that the graph doesn&#8217;t begin to get close to proving that a coalition is better at controlling government spending than a single party over time (no correction for stable near single party coalitions and unstable coalitions, and no attempt to suggest a cause just a correlation.)</p>
<p>Also, just to throw my cat firmly among the pigeons, anyone want to guess at the countries globally with the largest surplus. Do we think China, Saudi Arabia, and some other size of largest party = 100% of seats won upset the correlation?</p>
<p>So &#8211; what we should all be worried about is that not one of these democracies can run a surplus, not one.  Arguing that coalitions are the least worst way of breaking the economy isn&#8217;t particularly useful.</p>
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		<title>By: shockdoc</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32723</link>
		<dc:creator>shockdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 00:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32723</guid>
		<description>RE: Please define: “political data nerd”. There’s a lot that could fit that description.

Am I a political data nerd?: Scatterplot with information added on GDP Per Capita (pointsize)and Ratio of Health to Defense spending as a % of GDP (colour, red:blue): 

http://bit.ly/cuLyvZ

On the basis that one might hypothesise and increase (or decrease) in wealth, &quot;democratisation&quot; or even &quot;socialisation&quot; with smaller parties ... but.. looks like not. 

might as well vote by throwing yer granny down the stairs and seeing which way up she lands</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Please define: “political data nerd”. There’s a lot that could fit that description.</p>
<p>Am I a political data nerd?: Scatterplot with information added on GDP Per Capita (pointsize)and Ratio of Health to Defense spending as a % of GDP (colour, red:blue): </p>
<p><a href="http://bit.ly/cuLyvZ" rel="nofollow">bit.ly/cuLyvZ</a></p>
<p>On the basis that one might hypothesise and increase (or decrease) in wealth, &#8220;democratisation&#8221; or even &#8220;socialisation&#8221; with smaller parties &#8230; but.. looks like not. </p>
<p>might as well vote by throwing yer granny down the stairs and seeing which way up she lands</p>
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		<title>By: Sqk</title>
		<link>http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/comment-page-1/#comment-32722</link>
		<dc:creator>Sqk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 21:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.badscience.net/2010/05/will-a-hung-parliament-undermine-fiscal-discipline/#comment-32722</guid>
		<description>Please define: &quot;political data nerd&quot;. There&#039;s a lot that could fit that description.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please define: &#8220;political data nerd&#8221;. There&#8217;s a lot that could fit that description.</p>
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